Discussion:
We Must Act Now Before the U.S. Controls Mecca
(too old to reply)
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-27 21:34:33 UTC
Permalink
"We Must Act Now Before the U.S. Controls Mecca"

More from Al-Qa'ida's 'Voice of Jihad' Magazine: Issue
No. 9

The issue also includes a 'study' written by Yahyah bin
Ali Al-Ghamdi, titled "The Years of Deception." In it,
he writes: "[Some claim] that the blessed operations
carried out by the Islamic youth against America and
its helpers, such as the Bali operation and the blessed
Tuesday operation in Riyadh, are not useful at all!
They argue that these operations have not removed the
enemy from the Arabian Peninsula and have not deterred
America from continuing its aggression and oppression
of the Muslims. All these operations have done is to
distort the image of Islam and the Muslims and present
them in the eyes of the West as people from the Stone
Age, who apply makeup [made of] blood and perfume
themselves with body parts!...

"Don't you know that the clerics have stated that Jihad
becomes a personal duty if the enemy raids the land of
the Muslims...? According to those [who disagree with
this], a new formula should be put forth ... that Jihad
will become the personal duty when the enemy attacks
the land of the Muslims - only if the enemy can be
repelled and vanquished, and only if the [Muslim]
nation is completely prepared, and only if the ruler -
and we do not know who this ruler is - will permit it...

"Do you want us to be like the people of Baghdad who
were slaughtered like goats by the Mongols but remained
silent, and were paralyzed by fear, and none waved a
stick before the Mongols? The truth is that we must
forgive the people of Baghdad because by waving the
stick they would not have gained anything because the
Mongols were not about to leave their country!...

"Every day we grow weaker and weaker. Every day America
attacks us in another country, so what is preferable?
That we act now while our veins still pulse, or that we
wait until we see an American solder arranging the
worshipers' entrance into the mosque in Mecca...?"

--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
joe shit the rag man
2004-01-28 00:36:48 UTC
Permalink
to late stromboli, ya'll done screwed up !
me and bobby mcgee
2004-01-28 02:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.

Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.

Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
FP
2004-01-28 03:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
So, what is the agenda, Crusader? Which countries, which orgs are on
the list? You need to tell us, otherwise it seems like you want to
attack and conquer all Muslim countries.
--
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03:
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
me and bobby mcgee
2004-01-28 04:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Live and let live...they stop the terrorist bullshit, we don't kill
em...plain and simple.
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
So, what is the agenda, Crusader? Which countries, which orgs are on
the list? You need to tell us, otherwise it seems like you want to
attack and conquer all Muslim countries.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
FP
2004-01-28 04:48:09 UTC
Permalink
You never state who "they" are? You need to specify your enemies,
states or groups, otherwise it sounds like you wanna attack every Muslim
country on Earth.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Live and let live...they stop the terrorist bullshit, we don't kill
em...plain and simple.
Post by FP
So, what is the agenda, Crusader? Which countries, which orgs are on
the list? You need to tell us, otherwise it seems like you want to
attack and conquer all Muslim countries.
--
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03:
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
me and bobby mcgee
2004-01-28 05:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Muslim extremist groups, countries who support them (Saudi Arabia, Iran,
Syria, etc.). They aren't "MY" enemies, they are enemies of peaceful people
worldwide.
Post by FP
You never state who "they" are? You need to specify your enemies,
states or groups, otherwise it sounds like you wanna attack every Muslim
country on Earth.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Live and let live...they stop the terrorist bullshit, we don't kill
em...plain and simple.
Post by FP
So, what is the agenda, Crusader? Which countries, which orgs are on
the list? You need to tell us, otherwise it seems like you want to
attack and conquer all Muslim countries.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
FP
2004-01-28 05:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Ok gettin better. U named 3 states but no groups but you defined a
group of groups. :)
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslim extremist groups,
Name them.

Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon.
The various Palestinian groups? All? Which?
The GIA in Algeria?
Various radical Islamic groups in Yemen?
Various Islamic armed groups in Pakistan?
Jemayaa Islamiyaa in SE Asia?
Armed Islamist groups in Phillipines?
50 armed Kashmiri groups?
13 different armed Islamic groups in Chechnya and other places in
Caucasus?
Armed Islamist groups in Turkey?
PKK Kurds?
Post by me and bobby mcgee
countries who support them (Saudi Arabia,
Name the Muslim armed groups supported by the Saudi regime.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Iran,
Which Muslim extremist groups does Iran support? Name them.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Syria,
Which Muslim extremist groups does Syria support? Name them.

etc.).

Etc.? Name the other Muslim countries that support Muslim extremist
groups.

They aren't "MY" enemies, they are enemies of peaceful people
Post by me and bobby mcgee
worldwide.
There not many such peaceful ppl in the world. The Palestinian fighters
have wide support throughout the world.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
You never state who "they" are? You need to specify your enemies,
states or groups, otherwise it sounds like you wanna attack every Muslim
country on Earth.
--
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03:
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
me and bobby mcgee
2004-01-28 05:52:40 UTC
Permalink
Did I stutter? ALL OF THEM.
FP
2004-01-28 08:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Did I stutter? ALL OF THEM.
Ok now we get somewheres?

Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon.
The various Palestinian groups? All? Which?
The GIA in Algeria?
Various radical Islamic groups in Yemen?
Various Islamic armed groups in Pakistan?
Jemayaa Islamiyaa in SE Asia?
Armed Islamist groups in Phillipines?
50 armed Kashmiri groups?
13 different armed Islamic groups in Chechnya and other places in
Caucasus?
Armed Islamist groups in Turkey?
PKK Kurds?

There is the list. Also Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. That is all for
now. Any more countries?

Now, we look at the list:

Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon. You will need to attack,
invade, conquer and occupy Lebanon, probably.

The various Palestinian groups. You will need to attack, invade,
conquer and occupy the Occupied Territories then.

It looks like you will need to attack Phillipines, Kashmir, Pakistan,
Chechnya and Caucasus, Turkey, Indonesia, Yemen and Algeria then
correct?
--
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03:
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
Stuart Grey
2004-01-29 19:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Did I stutter? ALL OF THEM.
Ok now we get somewheres?
Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon.
The various Palestinian groups? All? Which?
The GIA in Algeria?
Various radical Islamic groups in Yemen?
Various Islamic armed groups in Pakistan?
Jemayaa Islamiyaa in SE Asia?
Armed Islamist groups in Phillipines?
50 armed Kashmiri groups?
13 different armed Islamic groups in Chechnya and other places in
Caucasus?
Armed Islamist groups in Turkey?
PKK Kurds?
There is the list. Also Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. That is all for
now. Any more countries?
Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon. You will need to attack,
invade, conquer and occupy Lebanon, probably.
The various Palestinian groups. You will need to attack, invade,
conquer and occupy the Occupied Territories then.
It looks like you will need to attack Phillipines, Kashmir, Pakistan,
Chechnya and Caucasus, Turkey, Indonesia, Yemen and Algeria then
correct?
Nah. Just NUKE the fuckers. The dirty bastards are not worth one American
life. We should be sure to use megaton ranged nukes so as to not cause a
big problem with fallout in the lower atmosphere. Once the Islamic
terrorist see we have every intent and ability to kill them all, you can
be sure they’ll become peaceful.

This tactic worked on the WW II German and Japanese. Hell, those
countries are STILL scared of showing any kind of aggression at all.
Compared to the Nazis and the Bushido culture of Japan, these Islamic
terrorist are a bunch of pussies. They’ll cave after the first 100
Megaton surface burst wastes Mecca and turns their magic rock into sub
atomic plasma.

We need to do to them what they intend to do to us. It’s kill or be
killed.
chris.holt
2004-01-29 20:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Grey
Nah. Just NUKE the fuckers. The dirty bastards are not worth one American
life. We should be sure to use megaton ranged nukes so as to not cause a
big problem with fallout in the lower atmosphere.
Oh boy; another advocate of genocide. They seemed to be
fading away last summer, but I guess you can't keep an evil
man down.
Post by Stuart Grey
Once the Islamic
terrorist see we have every intent and ability to kill them all, you can
be sure they’ll become peaceful.
Hey, it worked for Israel. They don't have any problems at all.
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Divin Marquis
2004-01-30 01:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.holt
Post by Stuart Grey
Once the Islamic
terrorist see we have every intent and ability to kill them all, you can
be sure they’ll become peaceful.
Hey, it worked for Israel. They don't have any problems at all.
It would be antisemitic to claim otherwise, would'nt it?
FP
2004-01-31 01:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Did I stutter? ALL OF THEM.
Ok now we get somewheres?
Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon.
The various Palestinian groups? All? Which?
The GIA in Algeria?
Various radical Islamic groups in Yemen?
Various Islamic armed groups in Pakistan?
Jemayaa Islamiyaa in SE Asia?
Armed Islamist groups in Phillipines?
50 armed Kashmiri groups?
13 different armed Islamic groups in Chechnya and other places in
Caucasus?
Armed Islamist groups in Turkey?
PKK Kurds?
There is the list. Also Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. That is all for
now. Any more countries?
Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon. You will need to attack,
invade, conquer and occupy Lebanon, probably.
The various Palestinian groups. You will need to attack, invade,
conquer and occupy the Occupied Territories then.
It looks like you will need to attack Phillipines, Kashmir, Pakistan,
Chechnya and Caucasus, Turkey, Indonesia, Yemen and Algeria then
correct?
Nah. Just NUKE the fuckers.
Which ones? Nuke which countries? Lay them out.

The dirty bastards are not worth one American
Post by Stuart Grey
life. We should be sure to use megaton ranged nukes so as to not cause a
big problem with fallout in the lower atmosphere. Once the Islamic
terrorist see we have every intent and ability to kill them all, you can
be sure they’ll become peaceful.
This tactic worked on the WW II German
We nuked the Germans?

and Japanese. Hell, those
Post by Stuart Grey
countries are STILL scared of showing any kind of aggression at all.
Compared to the Nazis and the Bushido culture of Japan, these Islamic
terrorist are a bunch of pussies. They’ll cave after the first 100
Megaton surface burst wastes Mecca and turns their magic rock into sub
atomic plasma.
So Mecca should be attacked first, is that correct, then?
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
2004-01-28 19:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Did I stutter? ALL OF THEM.
All of them are supported by people who eat Kelloggs cereal.

Helliburton set up a ghost office in the cayman islands to do business
with the axis of evil in Texas.

voodoo disease 666
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 23:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Did I stutter? ALL OF THEM.
All of them are supported by people who eat Kelloggs cereal.
Helliburton set up a ghost office in the cayman islands to do business
with the axis of evil in Texas.
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
2004-01-28 19:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslim extremist groups, countries who support them (Saudi Arabia, Iran,
Halliburton and Kelloggs does business with all of them.
Do you eat Kelloggs cereal?
If so you support terrorism.

Civil War 2004
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 23:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslim extremist groups, countries who support them (Saudi Arabia,
Iran,
Halliburton and Kelloggs does business with all of them.
Do you eat Kelloggs cereal?
If so you support terrorism.
UTTER NONSENSE !!
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
2004-01-31 13:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslim extremist groups, countries who support them (Saudi Arabia,
Iran,
Halliburton and Kelloggs does business with all of them.
Do you eat Kelloggs cereal?
If so you support terrorism.
UTTER NONSENSE !!
--
And so is the bible.
Jews do not own the middle east.

Death to the christian jew cop government
Post by Le Mod Pol
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 13:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
You never state who "they" are? You need to specify your enemies,
states or groups, otherwise it sounds like you wanna attack every Muslim
country on Earth.
The final conquest and arrest of Saddam Hussein,
prompted Libya's Khadafi to pull in his horns, and Gen
Musharraf to turn on the militant groups festering in
Pakistan. Musharraf also is finally trying to make
peace with India.

Iran hurriedly pulled the plug (at least temporarily)
on its nuke programme etc, so it would appear that
Syria is the next up, particularly since Saddam jump
started their WMD programme with at least half of his
stock and the scientists and technicians that made them.

Jihadis are everywhere, in Detroit and Ft Lauderdale,
London, UK and Paris, Oslo and Stockholm, Sidney,
Auckland and Buenos Aires.

How would you go about stamping out the plague?
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-01-31 02:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by FP
You never state who "they" are? You need to specify your enemies,
states or groups, otherwise it sounds like you wanna attack every Muslim
country on Earth.
The final conquest and arrest of Saddam Hussein,
prompted Libya's Khadafi to pull in his horns,
To give up weapons he never even had? Do you think Khaddafi will stop
aiding Palestinian guerillas? He gave them $150 million in July, and
that was after Iraq fell, 3 1/2 months after.

and Gen
Post by Le Mod Pol
Musharraf to turn on the militant groups festering in
Pakistan.
No, only after they tried to kill him a couple of times.

Musharraf also is finally trying to make
Post by Le Mod Pol
peace with India.
Well, we will see how far that goes. Anyway, the Kashmiris will contine
to fight even if Pakistan makes peace. Why does Pakistan have to make
peace with the Indian scum anyway, and not the other way around?
Post by Le Mod Pol
Iran hurriedly pulled the plug (at least temporarily)
on its nuke programme etc,
Not IMHO. I think they are working overdrive to get a nuke by August.

so it would appear that
Post by Le Mod Pol
Syria is the next up, particularly since Saddam jump
started their WMD programme with at least half of his
stock and the scientists and technicians that made them.
Next up meaning what?

No proof of the Iraq WMD in Syria thing. Just a Jewish lie.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Jihadis are everywhere, in Detroit and Ft Lauderdale,
London, UK and Paris, Oslo and Stockholm, Sidney,
Auckland and Buenos Aires.
How would you go about stamping out the plague?
I am not too worried about it. Al Qaeda has issued some very reasonable
demands to us, and I do not think meeting them is a problem.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
me and bobby mcgee
2004-01-28 04:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels that
they are) into the sea.

By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim it is
THEIR land anyway? The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
who TOOK OVER, just as they take over everywhere where they are welcomed. It
is the Israelites who should be inviting the "Palestinians" to live in
Israel. (as they do)
FP
2004-01-28 04:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels that
they are) into the sea.
A few do. :( Not many. Not too many want to kill the Christians.
That would be news to the Arabs I know. You know you go to the Arab
World and say the Arabs want to throw the Jews into the sea, and ppl
will laugh at you. It is regarded as a Zionist lie.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim it is
THEIR land anyway?
Cuz it is?

The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,

So what? The IsraeliteNazis got tossed out on their butts long ago,
2000 yrs ago. They are out. You cannot come back and reclaim some land
2000 yrs later after you got conquered and tossed, forget it.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
who TOOK OVER,
In ~700 correct, but they hardly took it over from the Jews. Mostly
from Christians and pagans.

just as they take over everywhere where they are welcomed.

Oh really now? When was the last time the Arabs conquered some country
anyway?

It
Post by me and bobby mcgee
is the Israelites who should be inviting the "Palestinians" to live in
Israel. (as they do)
Interesting. So are you a Jew?
--
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03:
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 13:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels that
they are) into the sea.
A few do. :( Not many. Not too many want to kill the Christians.
WRONG: When they say "Crusaders" that is jihadispeak
for Christians.
Post by FP
That would be news to the Arabs I know. You know you go to the Arab
World and say the Arabs want to throw the Jews into the sea, and ppl
will laugh at you. It is regarded as a Zionist lie.
If any arab says that to you - call him a liar. They
are not stupid enough to admit the truth. Why should they?
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim it is
THEIR land anyway?
Cuz it is?
Cuz you are a fool
Post by FP
The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
So what? The IsraeliteNazis
So now the proterrorist fool shows his true colours.
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-01-31 02:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels that
they are) into the sea.
A few do. :( Not many. Not too many want to kill the Christians.
WRONG: When they say "Crusaders" that is jihadispeak
for Christians.
Actually, many Arabs mean "those Christians who invade and conquer the
ME/Muslims". That is the jihad-speak. Some super-radicals may mean all
Christians but not most Palestinians.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by FP
That would be news to the Arabs I know. You know you go to the Arab
World and say the Arabs want to throw the Jews into the sea, and ppl
will laugh at you. It is regarded as a Zionist lie.
If any arab says that to you - call him a liar. They
are not stupid enough to admit the truth. Why should they?
An argument like that goes nowhere. Arabs admit the truth to me all the
time. A number have told me they want the Jews in Palestine to leave.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim it is
THEIR land anyway?
Cuz it is?
Cuz you are a fool
You are just a dirty Zionist Jew that is all.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by FP
The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
So what? The IsraeliteNazis
So now the proterrorist fool shows his true colours.
What true colors?
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Harvey
2004-01-28 15:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels that
they are) into the sea.
A few do. :( Not many. Not too many want to kill the Christians.
That would be news to the Arabs I know. You know you go to the Arab
World and say the Arabs want to throw the Jews into the sea, and ppl
will laugh at you. It is regarded as a Zionist lie.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim it is
THEIR land anyway?
Cuz it is?
The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
So what? The IsraeliteNazis got tossed out on their butts long ago,
2000 yrs ago. They are out. You cannot come back and reclaim some land
2000 yrs later after you got conquered and tossed, forget it.
Interesting. I like the thread and your way of reasoning in it thus far, FP.
But I have questions.

1) Given that it is unreasonable for a people to be displaced, have 2000
years pass, and expect the land back again, we have established that there
is a threshold for time passing where expectation turns from reasonable to
unreasonable. What is that threshold? So far you've established 2000 years
as a theoretical minimum. I'm a white American, and American Indians
certainly can and do have a similar grievance... indeed a much better one,
since they were inarguably the first ones here on the two American
continents. Can the theoretical threshold be dropped from 2000?

2) You've established a list of countries that must be attacked in order to
stamp out Islamic fundamentalists, since the Muslims around them cannot or
will not make them cease their attacks against what they see as a powerful
enemy. Let's presume the fundamentalists are right, that the USA is an
enemy, lead by a secret Zionist cabal. Do you believe that the USA could not
easily conquer every country on the list in all-out warfare?

Harvey
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
who TOOK OVER,
In ~700 correct, but they hardly took it over from the Jews. Mostly
from Christians and pagans.
just as they take over everywhere where they are welcomed.
Oh really now? When was the last time the Arabs conquered some country
anyway?
It
Post by me and bobby mcgee
is the Israelites who should be inviting the "Palestinians" to live in
Israel. (as they do)
Interesting. So are you a Jew?
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
FP
2004-01-30 11:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the
whole..."
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels
that
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
they are) into the sea.
A few do. :( Not many. Not too many want to kill the Christians.
That would be news to the Arabs I know. You know you go to the Arab
World and say the Arabs want to throw the Jews into the sea, and ppl
will laugh at you. It is regarded as a Zionist lie.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim
it is
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
THEIR land anyway?
Cuz it is?
The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
So what? The IsraeliteNazis got tossed out on their butts long ago,
2000 yrs ago. They are out. You cannot come back and reclaim some land
2000 yrs later after you got conquered and tossed, forget it.
Interesting. I like the thread and your way of reasoning in it thus far, FP.
Thx!
Post by FP
But I have questions.
1) Given that it is unreasonable for a people to be displaced, have 2000
years pass, and expect the land back again, we have established that there
is a threshold for time passing where expectation turns from reasonable to
unreasonable.
No, I do not think so. No time limit.

What is that threshold?

None, probably.

So far you've established 2000 years
Post by FP
as a theoretical minimum.
No.

I'm a white American,

Me 2.

and American Indians

Yes there are quite a few of them living all around me here, on their
ancestral land. :)
Post by FP
certainly can and do have a similar grievance...
Yes, they do, but the game is over here. Not so in Palestine.

indeed a much better one,

Not really, IMHO. The 2 situations are analogous.
Post by FP
since they were inarguably the first ones here on the two American
continents.
I do not think this stuff about Who Was Here First means anything.
Apparenly the Basques may have been in the Caucasus before the others.
The white Berbers in N. Africa are apparently invaders.
Bushmen/Hottentots used to live in Ethiopia. The Zulu kicked out the
Bushmen. The Dravidians used to have all of India. The Han overran
much of China. England is settled mostly by invaders. On and on.

Can the theoretical threshold be dropped from 2000?

No, I would argue instead that the Am Indians signed peace treaties in
which they were given a part of their land in return for an end to the
wars. The treaties were shit, but the Indians basically just gave up,
slowly, group by group, over ~300 years. They put down their weapons,
renounced armed struggle and resolved to accept the invaders.

Anyway the situation with US and Indians differs in many ways from
Zionists and Arabs which I will elaborate if you wish. Basically, Am
Indians have a much better situation that the Palestinians and their 2
conditions are not really analogous at the moment.
Post by FP
2) You've established a list of countries that must be attacked in order to
stamp out Islamic fundamentalists,
Not me! I just threw out some guesses for you all. Because the
warriors here when they talk about this Terror War, it sounds like a War
on Islam or a War on Muslims. Well, if that is what it is then *I will
gladly advocate armed attacks on military targets in the US* right now,
ok? Now, I do not think the US is intending at the moment to attack
every Muslim country on Earth. So, I want the warriors here to LAY OUT
precisely which damned countries they wish to attack and why. Also,
there are talking about war on some vague "Muslim terrorists" entity.
Well, fine. Like the PLO? See? So, I am going to lay out a list of
armed Islamic movements or groups out there, and I want you folks to
tell me if they are on the plate or what?

Reasonable?

since the Muslims around them cannot or
Post by FP
will not make them cease their attacks against what they see as a powerful
enemy.
Well I never made that argument. I do not think any government on Earth
is assisting Al Qaeda right now, not directly. Iraq is a lot sketchier,
looks like help from Iran. Looks like Pakistan, Iran and Russia are
arming the Afghan mujahedin. So, anyway, my point is the people, the Al
Qaeda constellation, that worry us so, essentially are not being
supported by any states, so regime changing states to fight Al Qaeda
seems retarded.

Let's presume the fundamentalists are right, that the USA is an
Post by FP
enemy,
Is this controversial? Surely, to these fundamentalists, the US is an
enemy to many of them. We have stated as much.

lead by a secret Zionist cabal.

Well, you know, the Zionists have never had more power than under this
loony administration. The Likudniks pretty much have the upper hand
with the Bushies. And it is not a secret cabal, we have names, papers,
dates, biographies, organizations and periodicals with addresses and
phone numbers and a paper trail of evidence dating back decades.

Do you believe that the USA could not
Post by FP
easily conquer every country on the list in all-out warfare?
Which list? We could probably conquer most of those countries, though N
Korea would be really terrible because the N Koreans would kill so many
S Koreans and probly Americans in the process. Iran would not be easy
but we could do it. Syria would be like Iraq but harder. Lebanon
similar to Iraq, that is really hard to say. Somalia could be overrun,
Sudan, yes, Libya, yes. However, Libya and Syria have chem weapons they
could lob at us or Israel. Iran has a highly advanced chem and bio
program. N Korea has a huge chem and bio program and probably a couple
of nukes.

NO it would not be EASY as you put it, esp N Korea. However, it is all
probably doable. But then you would just end of like Iraq or probably a
lot worse in case of Syria, Lebanon, N Korea, maybe Libya, Sudan,
Somalia, because the population would be so goddamned hostile.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Harvey
2004-01-30 15:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by FP
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the
whole..."
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels
that
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
they are) into the sea.
A few do. :( Not many. Not too many want to kill the Christians.
That would be news to the Arabs I know. You know you go to the Arab
World and say the Arabs want to throw the Jews into the sea, and ppl
will laugh at you. It is regarded as a Zionist lie.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim
it is
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
THEIR land anyway?
Cuz it is?
The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
So what? The IsraeliteNazis got tossed out on their butts long ago,
2000 yrs ago. They are out. You cannot come back and reclaim some land
2000 yrs later after you got conquered and tossed, forget it.
Interesting. I like the thread and your way of reasoning in it thus far, FP.
Thx!
Post by FP
But I have questions.
1) Given that it is unreasonable for a people to be displaced, have 2000
years pass, and expect the land back again, we have established that there
is a threshold for time passing where expectation turns from reasonable to
unreasonable.
No, I do not think so. No time limit.
Given what you've written here I imagine we're pretty much on the same page,
except for a couple of things. You seemingly contradict yourself here,
denying the present Israelis their "right" to return after 2000 years while
insisting on no time limit for the return of a displaced people. I imagine
in clarifying that you'll suggest the present Israelis are a different group
somehow and we can dance around that without coming to agreement. Is that
pretty much how that will go, or do you have something else?

My problem with this displaced persons argument in general is that it tugs
the heartstrings while not providing anything else. There are many examples
of people being displaced for unfair reasons, but when righting that wrong
simply becomes unworkable, making the argument isn't helpful (and I don't
buy for a minute your rationalizations about the American Indians, for
example, while trying to hold open the argument for the Palestinians...
please correct me if I'm making unwarrented assumptions). Returning
Palestine to the Palestinians and recreating the situation 60 years ago
isn't workable. Some other balance must be struck.
Post by FP
What is that threshold?
None, probably.
So far you've established 2000 years
Post by FP
as a theoretical minimum.
No.
I'm a white American,
Me 2.
Yo, bro.
Post by FP
and American Indians
Yes there are quite a few of them living all around me here, on their
ancestral land. :)
Post by FP
certainly can and do have a similar grievance...
Yes, they do, but the game is over here. Not so in Palestine.
indeed a much better one,
Not really, IMHO. The 2 situations are analogous.
Post by FP
since they were inarguably the first ones here on the two American
continents.
I do not think this stuff about Who Was Here First means anything.
Oh, come now, Who Was Here Second means more? You're really not making sense
here.
Post by FP
Apparenly the Basques may have been in the Caucasus before the others.
The white Berbers in N. Africa are apparently invaders.
Bushmen/Hottentots used to live in Ethiopia. The Zulu kicked out the
Bushmen. The Dravidians used to have all of India. The Han overran
much of China. England is settled mostly by invaders. On and on.
And on and on and on... which is why the displacement argument more than a
generation or so removed doesn't make much sense in the first place, and is
marginal even then. The time to prevent or redress such an injustice without
creating a new one in much more immediate than that, and for the
Palestinians WRT land it has passed, IMO. As a practical matter most people
instinctively realize this. If I go gunning for someone who *killed* (much
less, took his land) my father, people will understand. If I go gunning for
someone who killed my grandfather, they start to think maybe I live in
Appalachia. If I go gunning for someone who killed my great-grandfather
they'll rightly assume I'm nuts.
Post by FP
Can the theoretical threshold be dropped from 2000?
No, I would argue instead that the Am Indians signed peace treaties in
which they were given a part of their land in return for an end to the
wars. The treaties were shit, but the Indians basically just gave up,
slowly, group by group, over ~300 years. They put down their weapons,
renounced armed struggle and resolved to accept the invaders.
Anyway the situation with US and Indians differs in many ways from
Zionists and Arabs which I will elaborate if you wish.
Please do.


Basically, Am
Post by FP
Indians have a much better situation that the Palestinians and their 2
conditions are not really analogous at the moment.
Post by FP
2) You've established a list of countries that must be attacked in order to
stamp out Islamic fundamentalists,
Not me! I just threw out some guesses for you all. Because the
warriors here when they talk about this Terror War, it sounds like a War
on Islam or a War on Muslims. Well, if that is what it is then *I will
gladly advocate armed attacks on military targets in the US* right now,
ok? Now, I do not think the US is intending at the moment to attack
every Muslim country on Earth. So, I want the warriors here to LAY OUT
precisely which damned countries they wish to attack and why. Also,
there are talking about war on some vague "Muslim terrorists" entity.
Well, fine. Like the PLO? See? So, I am going to lay out a list of
armed Islamic movements or groups out there, and I want you folks to
tell me if they are on the plate or what?
Reasonable?
since the Muslims around them cannot or
Post by FP
will not make them cease their attacks against what they see as a powerful
enemy.
Well I never made that argument. I do not think any government on Earth
is assisting Al Qaeda right now, not directly. Iraq is a lot sketchier,
looks like help from Iran. Looks like Pakistan, Iran and Russia are
arming the Afghan mujahedin. So, anyway, my point is the people, the Al
Qaeda constellation, that worry us so, essentially are not being
supported by any states, so regime changing states to fight Al Qaeda
seems retarded.
ARTT, you either buy the notion that militant Islamic fundamentalism is
dangerous, or you do not. IMV it represents the rise of a new form of
religious fascism, and not fighting such a thing early on is stupid.
Fighting it without a strategy is more stupid, if that's possible. In this
case, there is a strategy, and it isn't retarded. I'm not sure why you pick
out Al Qaeda per se, they all share common goals, but let's take them as an
example. There is nothing OBL would like better than to see a caliphate
across the entire ME in the short term and the world in the long term. The
present invasion as a tactical ploy against Al Qaeda is a null move. As a
strategic move it is quite good.
Post by FP
Let's presume the fundamentalists are right, that the USA is an
Post by FP
enemy,
Is this controversial? Surely, to these fundamentalists, the US is an
enemy to many of them. We have stated as much.
lead by a secret Zionist cabal.
Well, you know, the Zionists have never had more power than under this
loony administration. The Likudniks pretty much have the upper hand
with the Bushies. And it is not a secret cabal, we have names, papers,
dates, biographies, organizations and periodicals with addresses and
phone numbers and a paper trail of evidence dating back decades.
More to the point we have a de facto alliance with Israel.
Post by FP
Do you believe that the USA could not
Post by FP
easily conquer every country on the list in all-out warfare?
Which list? We could probably conquer most of those countries, though N
Korea would be really terrible because the N Koreans would kill so many
S Koreans and probly Americans in the process. Iran would not be easy
but we could do it. Syria would be like Iraq but harder. Lebanon
similar to Iraq, that is really hard to say. Somalia could be overrun,
Sudan, yes, Libya, yes. However, Libya and Syria have chem weapons they
could lob at us or Israel. Iran has a highly advanced chem and bio
program. N Korea has a huge chem and bio program and probably a couple
of nukes.
NO it would not be EASY as you put it, esp N Korea. However, it is all
probably doable. But then you would just end of like Iraq or probably a
lot worse in case of Syria, Lebanon, N Korea, maybe Libya, Sudan,
Somalia, because the population would be so goddamned hostile.
I meant "easily" in terms of the military capability, not the attendant
human suffering and loss of life. And that's only considering our
conventional capability. In all-out warfare it would be over in an
afternoon.

Not that I'm advocating that, I'm just not sure where you're going with
listing this country or that one that has problems from the US perspective
with harboring IF terrorists. Whatever you think of the morality of invading
Iraq, I don't think you can credibly question that the leaders of the
countries on your list wonder what America will do if they persist. There's
evidence that they do wonder about that now, and they should.

Harvey
Post by FP
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
ELurio
2004-01-30 20:24:58 UTC
Permalink
<< You seemingly contradict yourself here,
denying the present Israelis their "right" to return after 2000 years while
insisting on no time limit for the return of a displaced people. >><BR><BR>

Okay, please remember that the Jews were a plurality in Palestine for most of
the last two thousand years. In fact, just before the Islamic conquest, there
was an actual Jewish state there.

The decline of the Jews in Palestine was not until the 17th century when the
false messiah Shabbtai Svi raised an army and got his ass kicked in, this was
followed by a century and a half ethnic cleansing which left the area empty of
people [25 thousand max in an area the size of New Jersey].

<< I imagine
in clarifying that you'll suggest the present Israelis are a different group
somehow and we can dance around that without coming to agreement. Is that
pretty much how that will go, or do you have something else? >><BR><BR>
<< I imagine
in clarifying that you'll suggest the present Israelis are a different group
somehow and we can dance around that without coming to agreement. Is that
pretty much how that will go, or do you have something else? >><BR><BR>

Antizionism is a form of antisemitism. The concept that Jews are unworthy of
living ANYWHERE is racist and repulsive. The Arab revolt of the 1930s was
sparked by elderly Jews being allowed to sit by the Western Wall in CHAIRS. The
horror the Arabs felt at the Jews having the right to JEWISH HOLY PLACES was
intense.

eric l.
FP
2004-01-31 01:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
Post by FP
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the
whole..."
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews
into
Post by FP
Post by FP
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else
(Infidels
Post by FP
Post by FP
that
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
they are) into the sea.
A few do. :( Not many. Not too many want to kill the Christians.
That would be news to the Arabs I know. You know you go to the Arab
World and say the Arabs want to throw the Jews into the sea, and ppl
will laugh at you. It is regarded as a Zionist lie.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to
claim
Post by FP
Post by FP
it is
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
THEIR land anyway?
Cuz it is?
The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
So what? The IsraeliteNazis got tossed out on their butts long ago,
2000 yrs ago. They are out. You cannot come back and reclaim some
land
Post by FP
Post by FP
Post by FP
2000 yrs later after you got conquered and tossed, forget it.
Interesting. I like the thread and your way of reasoning in it thus far,
FP.
Post by FP
Thx!
Post by FP
But I have questions.
1) Given that it is unreasonable for a people to be displaced, have 2000
years pass, and expect the land back again, we have established that
there
Post by FP
Post by FP
is a threshold for time passing where expectation turns from reasonable
to
Post by FP
Post by FP
unreasonable.
No, I do not think so. No time limit.
Given what you've written here I imagine we're pretty much on the same page,
except for a couple of things. You seemingly contradict yourself here,
denying the present Israelis their "right" to return after 2000 years while
insisting on no time limit for the return of a displaced people.
Right, if they never surrender, never renounce the right, never give up,
never renounce armed struggle. I doubt that for 2000 years Jews were
ranting in the Diaspora about how they were going to reconquer their
stolen land.

I imagine
Post by me and bobby mcgee
in clarifying that you'll suggest the present Israelis are a different group
somehow
No, they are not. But they did not maintain armed struggle, or even
threaten armed struggle, to get their land back for 2000 years, so the
world ratified the crime of the conquest.

and we can dance around that without coming to agreement.

No they are Jews all right. I do not buy the Khazar theory.

Is that
Post by me and bobby mcgee
pretty much how that will go, or do you have something else?
Yeh they gave up their right effectively. They moved along ways away,
the original invaders got displaced by new invaders to the pt where they
could not even get their land back from those who displaced them. The
Jews did not fight armed struggle for 2000 years, nor rant in the
Diaspora about how they were going to wage armed struggle to get their
land back, so they snoozed and they lost. The whole Diaspora thing
about "return to Jerusalem/Israel" really meant the Messiah comes, God
gives Israel to the Jews, everything is fine. Zionism was essentially
religious heresy in that they decided, in 1862, to go and conquer their
land back by invading it. So, 1800 yrs later, the Jews decide they want
to start up armed struggle again. You snooze you lose.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
My problem with this displaced persons argument in general is that it tugs
the heartstrings while not providing anything else. There are many examples
of people being displaced for unfair reasons, but when righting that wrong
simply becomes unworkable, making the argument isn't helpful (and I don't
buy for a minute your rationalizations about the American Indians, for
example, while trying to hold open the argument for the Palestinians...
please correct me if I'm making unwarrented assumptions).
You are indeed. The Indians surrendered, the Palestinians never did.
When the natives surrender, the world ratifies the invasion and moves
on.

Returning
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Palestine to the Palestinians and recreating the situation 60 years ago
isn't workable. Some other balance must be struck.
I favor a binational state, if possible.>
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
and American Indians
Yes there are quite a few of them living all around me here, on their
ancestral land. :)
Post by FP
certainly can and do have a similar grievance...
Yes, they do, but the game is over here. Not so in Palestine.
indeed a much better one,
Not really, IMHO. The 2 situations are analogous.
Post by FP
since they were inarguably the first ones here on the two American
continents.
I do not think this stuff about Who Was Here First means anything.
Oh, come now, Who Was Here Second means more? You're really not making sense
here.
Yes I am. It is not based on who was here first, because if so, the
Basque claim predates the Chechens, the Blacks have a right to kick out
the Berbers, the Zulu have no claim over the Afrikaaners because Zulu
kicked out Bushmen, bla bla bla. Who was here first MOST RECENTLY AS IS
SENSIBLE. I guess Danes landed in Newfundland before British and
French. Danish invasion?
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
Apparenly the Basques may have been in the Caucasus before the others.
The white Berbers in N. Africa are apparently invaders.
Bushmen/Hottentots used to live in Ethiopia. The Zulu kicked out the
Bushmen. The Dravidians used to have all of India. The Han overran
much of China. England is settled mostly by invaders. On and on.
And on and on and on... which is why the displacement argument more than a
generation or so removed doesn't make much sense in the first place, and is
marginal even then.
No because all those groups surrendered or renounced armed struggle, so
the world ratified the crime and moved on. The claim remains as long as
the natives wage war for it.

The time to prevent or redress such an injustice without
Post by me and bobby mcgee
creating a new one in much more immediate than that, and for the
Palestinians WRT land it has passed, IMO. As a practical matter most people
instinctively realize this. If I go gunning for someone who *killed* (much
less, took his land) my father, people will understand. If I go gunning for
someone who killed my grandfather, they start to think maybe I live in
Appalachia. If I go gunning for someone who killed my great-grandfather
they'll rightly assume I'm nuts.
In the ME or the Afghanistan or Chechnya no one would think you were
crazy at all. Anyway, it is about a people and their homeland, really,
not about what was done to one's ancestors. Palestinians identify as
Palestinians, say they are deprived of their homeland, and wage war to
get it back. Ok, fine. Most do not talk about what got done to grandpa
anyway. It is all about what Israel did yesterday. Palestinians are
not fighting Israel cuz of grandma.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
Can the theoretical threshold be dropped from 2000?
No, I would argue instead that the Am Indians signed peace treaties in
which they were given a part of their land in return for an end to the
wars. The treaties were shit, but the Indians basically just gave up,
slowly, group by group, over ~300 years. They put down their weapons,
renounced armed struggle and resolved to accept the invaders.
Anyway the situation with US and Indians differs in many ways from
Zionists and Arabs which I will elaborate if you wish.
Please do.
In another post, ok.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Basically, Am
Post by FP
Indians have a much better situation that the Palestinians and their 2
conditions are not really analogous at the moment.
Post by FP
2) You've established a list of countries that must be attacked in order
to
Post by FP
Post by FP
stamp out Islamic fundamentalists,
Not me! I just threw out some guesses for you all. Because the
warriors here when they talk about this Terror War, it sounds like a War
on Islam or a War on Muslims. Well, if that is what it is then *I will
gladly advocate armed attacks on military targets in the US* right now,
ok? Now, I do not think the US is intending at the moment to attack
every Muslim country on Earth. So, I want the warriors here to LAY OUT
precisely which damned countries they wish to attack and why. Also,
there are talking about war on some vague "Muslim terrorists" entity.
Well, fine. Like the PLO? See? So, I am going to lay out a list of
armed Islamic movements or groups out there, and I want you folks to
tell me if they are on the plate or what?
Reasonable?
since the Muslims around them cannot or
Post by FP
will not make them cease their attacks against what they see as a
powerful
Post by FP
Post by FP
enemy.
Well I never made that argument. I do not think any government on Earth
is assisting Al Qaeda right now, not directly. Iraq is a lot sketchier,
looks like help from Iran. Looks like Pakistan, Iran and Russia are
arming the Afghan mujahedin. So, anyway, my point is the people, the Al
Qaeda constellation, that worry us so, essentially are not being
supported by any states, so regime changing states to fight Al Qaeda
seems retarded.
ARTT, you either buy the notion that militant Islamic fundamentalism is
dangerous, or you do not.
Well, it is, at the moment, because they are at war with us. But they
have laid out some pretty reasonable demands for a truce with us, it
appears. And their original grievances with the US were quite
reasonable. IOW, we could quite easily alleviate much of Al Qaeda's
rage towards us. At that point, I guess they are targeting Muslim
regimes or Israel, or India or Russia, I do not know.....as long as we
stay in Afghanistan and Iraq, we feed it. If we could get out of war
with them, I think they would not attack us. At that pt., I think the
threat is pretty marginal in real terms.

IMV it represents the rise of a new form of
Post by me and bobby mcgee
religious fascism,
Oh I suppose. It is nothing new you know.

and not fighting such a thing early on is stupid.

Not really. It is just Islam. We lived with it for centuries, we lived
with the stupid Caliphate, it was no big deal. I would not even worry
about that much.
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Fighting it without a strategy is more stupid, if that's possible.
The worst thing is to feed and increase it which is what we are doing.

In this
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case, there is a strategy, and it isn't retarded.
It is.

I'm not sure why you pick
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out Al Qaeda per se,
They have declared war on USA.

they all share common goals,

Yes but most others have not declared war on USA. Furthermore, Al Qaeda
is extremely radical, much more radical than most such groups.

but let's take them as an
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example. There is nothing OBL would like better than to see a caliphate
across the entire ME in the short term
All the Islamic World, first. Which will never happen, probably.

and the world in the long term.

This is something OBL has never discussed, or Al Qaeda either for that
matter. It is all about the Islamic World.

The
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present invasion as a tactical ploy against Al Qaeda is a null move.
Waging war on Al Qaeda by invading Iraq was like setting your hair
onfire and putting it out with a sledgehammer.

As a
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strategic move it is quite good.
Actually it is a total disaster.
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Post by FP
Let's presume the fundamentalists are right, that the USA is an
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enemy,
Is this controversial? Surely, to these fundamentalists, the US is an
enemy to many of them. We have stated as much.
lead by a secret Zionist cabal.
Well, you know, the Zionists have never had more power than under this
loony administration. The Likudniks pretty much have the upper hand
with the Bushies. And it is not a secret cabal, we have names, papers,
dates, biographies, organizations and periodicals with addresses and
phone numbers and a paper trail of evidence dating back decades.
More to the point we have a de facto alliance with Israel.
Ok but it is important to understand that the Bush alliance w/ Israel
vs. all previous administrations is like 2 different universes.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
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Do you believe that the USA could not
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easily conquer every country on the list in all-out warfare?
Which list? We could probably conquer most of those countries, though N
Korea would be really terrible because the N Koreans would kill so many
S Koreans and probly Americans in the process. Iran would not be easy
but we could do it. Syria would be like Iraq but harder. Lebanon
similar to Iraq, that is really hard to say. Somalia could be overrun,
Sudan, yes, Libya, yes. However, Libya and Syria have chem weapons they
could lob at us or Israel. Iran has a highly advanced chem and bio
program. N Korea has a huge chem and bio program and probably a couple
of nukes.
NO it would not be EASY as you put it, esp N Korea. However, it is all
probably doable. But then you would just end of like Iraq or probably a
lot worse in case of Syria, Lebanon, N Korea, maybe Libya, Sudan,
Somalia, because the population would be so goddamned hostile.
I meant "easily" in terms of the military capability,
North Korea and Iran would not be easy at all, and some of the others
would not be pretty. NK and Iran are both doable, but NK is insane
because of all the loss of life.

not the attendant
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human suffering and loss of life. And that's only considering our
conventional capability. In all-out warfare it would be over in an
afternoon.
Well I would not recommend that. I assume you mean nuclear warfare.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Not that I'm advocating that, I'm just not sure where you're going with
listing this country or that one that has problems from the US perspective
with harboring IF terrorists.
Because it is not entirely clear to me why the US is at war with say,
Hamas, or Islamic Jihad, or Hezbollah, or Al-Aqsa, or PFLP, or DFLP. It
is not clear that the countries on those lists are haboring any
terrorists at all, furthermore, even if they are, it looks like those
terrorists are fighting Israel, in which case I say why is that our
business.

You simply have utterly failed to lay out your goddamn case. You
threaten this country and that, and 1/2 the time it seems you
threatening war on the whole Islamic/Arab World. As I said before, if
that were our nation's policy, USA would be a mad dog and I would
support all out war on America. Now, that said, that does not appear to
be our policy. But frankly, you guys sound like Hitlerite mad dogs that
need to be put down. It is utterly not accessible to just threaten war
on vast segments of the Earth, without being specific. As I said,
nations that do that are MAD DOGS that must be destroyed. Now, if you
warriors have a beef with some nation, or some group, I want to hear
just exactly what that beef is, ok? Otherwise you will go into the MAD
DOG category.

Whatever you think of the morality of invading
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Iraq, I don't think you can credibly question that the leaders of the
countries on your list wonder what America will do if they persist.
Of course they do, but the whole philosophy is stupid, and so are the
charges. Did any antiwar folks REALLY say that the Bushies would not be
able to threaten ppl right and left and get a lot of ppl to cave in?
Who said that? Show me the quote? So why is it some big victory that
Bush is able to bully the planet into getting his way? The Mafia, the
Colombian cartels, the Axis, the Crips and Bloods, Saddam, they all
bullied ppl into going along with him. Why is Bush's success at
bullying any more apreciable than the Mafia's, or Stalin's, or Saddam's,
or Mao's? Of course bullying works! Did we ever say it did it? Quote
me who said that. It is just a reckless policy that is as likely to
fail as well as succeed and the primary danger is *blowback*.

Anyway, at the moment, it is obvious to anyone that the USA ain't goin
nowhere. The US and Israel (USreal) are completely died down. Israel
is bankrupt and the US is heading there. Israel has its hands full in
OT, and the US in Iraq. The US lacks troops to occupy Iraq. So now we
can go attacking right and left everywhere else? Bullshit. It is
possible that the USreal idiots could recklessly extend themselves even
further by attacking Syria, say, but that is just insane at the moment.
To attack more countries, the US needs a bigger army and a draft.

The Iraqi rebels deserve commendation in a way. They have tied down the
US in a horrible way. Without their resistance, clearly the US would
have attacked Syria, maybe Iran, maybe NK by now. So in a way they have
done a good thing.

There's
Post by me and bobby mcgee
evidence that they do wonder about that now, and they should.
They do, but also they are smiling because they know that the US is
horribly tied down in Iraq and cannot really start anymore major wars.
To that end, they are supporting the Iraqi rebels - Syria, Saudi Arabia,
Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, the Palestinians. No one wants the US in Iraq
now, it is bad for all the neighbors. It is in their interest to make
this Iraq situation as ugly as possible.

I do not agree that NK, Iran, Syria or the others are caving in anyway.
I think that is a bunch of propaganda crap.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Harvey
2004-01-31 05:06:21 UTC
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"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the
whole..."
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Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews
into
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the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else
(Infidels
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that
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they are) into the sea.
A few do. :( Not many. Not too many want to kill the Christians.
That would be news to the Arabs I know. You know you go to the Arab
World and say the Arabs want to throw the Jews into the sea, and ppl
will laugh at you. It is regarded as a Zionist lie.
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By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to
claim
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it is
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THEIR land anyway?
Cuz it is?
The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
So what? The IsraeliteNazis got tossed out on their butts long ago,
2000 yrs ago. They are out. You cannot come back and reclaim some
land
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2000 yrs later after you got conquered and tossed, forget it.
Interesting. I like the thread and your way of reasoning in it thus far,
FP.
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Thx!
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But I have questions.
1) Given that it is unreasonable for a people to be displaced, have 2000
years pass, and expect the land back again, we have established that
there
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is a threshold for time passing where expectation turns from reasonable
to
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unreasonable.
No, I do not think so. No time limit.
Given what you've written here I imagine we're pretty much on the same page,
except for a couple of things.
Wrong there, anyways, certainly.


You seemingly contradict yourself here,
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denying the present Israelis their "right" to return after 2000 years while
insisting on no time limit for the return of a displaced people.
Right, if they never surrender, never renounce the right, never give up,
never renounce armed struggle. I doubt that for 2000 years Jews were
ranting in the Diaspora about how they were going to reconquer their
stolen land.
I imagine
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in clarifying that you'll suggest the present Israelis are a different group
somehow
No, they are not. But they did not maintain armed struggle, or even
threaten armed struggle, to get their land back for 2000 years, so the
world ratified the crime of the conquest.
and we can dance around that without coming to agreement.
No they are Jews all right. I do not buy the Khazar theory.
Is that
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pretty much how that will go, or do you have something else?
Yeh they gave up their right effectively. They moved along ways away,
the original invaders got displaced by new invaders to the pt where they
could not even get their land back from those who displaced them. The
Jews did not fight armed struggle for 2000 years, nor rant in the
Diaspora about how they were going to wage armed struggle to get their
land back, so they snoozed and they lost. The whole Diaspora thing
about "return to Jerusalem/Israel" really meant the Messiah comes, God
gives Israel to the Jews, everything is fine. Zionism was essentially
religious heresy in that they decided, in 1862, to go and conquer their
land back by invading it. So, 1800 yrs later, the Jews decide they want
to start up armed struggle again. You snooze you lose.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
My problem with this displaced persons argument in general is that it tugs
the heartstrings while not providing anything else. There are many examples
of people being displaced for unfair reasons, but when righting that wrong
simply becomes unworkable, making the argument isn't helpful (and I don't
buy for a minute your rationalizations about the American Indians, for
example, while trying to hold open the argument for the Palestinians...
please correct me if I'm making unwarrented assumptions).
You are indeed. The Indians surrendered, the Palestinians never did.
When the natives surrender, the world ratifies the invasion and moves
on.
I understand the distinction you're making, but you're hair-splitting the
issue when you do it, and I don't buy it. If that's the way it works and is
the way Israel should look at it, then they never should have given up an
inch of the occupied territories, and the settlers are right to put up all
the settlements they want to, because the struggle is still on, and screw
talking with the Palistinians at *all*.
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Returning
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Palestine to the Palestinians and recreating the situation 60 years ago
isn't workable. Some other balance must be struck.
I favor a binational state, if possible.
So do I.
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and American Indians
Yes there are quite a few of them living all around me here, on their
ancestral land. :)
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certainly can and do have a similar grievance...
Yes, they do, but the game is over here. Not so in Palestine.
indeed a much better one,
Not really, IMHO. The 2 situations are analogous.
Post by FP
since they were inarguably the first ones here on the two American
continents.
I do not think this stuff about Who Was Here First means anything.
Oh, come now, Who Was Here Second means more? You're really not making sense
here.
Yes I am. It is not based on who was here first, because if so, the
Basque claim predates the Chechens, the Blacks have a right to kick out
the Berbers, the Zulu have no claim over the Afrikaaners because Zulu
kicked out Bushmen, bla bla bla. Who was here first MOST RECENTLY AS IS
SENSIBLE. I guess Danes landed in Newfundland before British and
French. Danish invasion?
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Apparenly the Basques may have been in the Caucasus before the others.
The white Berbers in N. Africa are apparently invaders.
Bushmen/Hottentots used to live in Ethiopia. The Zulu kicked out the
Bushmen. The Dravidians used to have all of India. The Han overran
much of China. England is settled mostly by invaders. On and on.
And on and on and on... which is why the displacement argument more than a
generation or so removed doesn't make much sense in the first place, and is
marginal even then.
No because all those groups surrendered or renounced armed struggle, so
the world ratified the crime and moved on. The claim remains as long as
the natives wage war for it.
The time to prevent or redress such an injustice without
Post by me and bobby mcgee
creating a new one in much more immediate than that, and for the
Palestinians WRT land it has passed, IMO. As a practical matter most people
instinctively realize this. If I go gunning for someone who *killed* (much
less, took his land) my father, people will understand. If I go gunning for
someone who killed my grandfather, they start to think maybe I live in
Appalachia. If I go gunning for someone who killed my great-grandfather
they'll rightly assume I'm nuts.
In the ME or the Afghanistan or Chechnya no one would think you were
crazy at all. Anyway, it is about a people and their homeland, really,
not about what was done to one's ancestors. Palestinians identify as
Palestinians, say they are deprived of their homeland, and wage war to
get it back. Ok, fine. Most do not talk about what got done to grandpa
anyway. It is all about what Israel did yesterday. Palestinians are
not fighting Israel cuz of grandma.
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Post by FP
Can the theoretical threshold be dropped from 2000?
No, I would argue instead that the Am Indians signed peace treaties in
which they were given a part of their land in return for an end to the
wars. The treaties were shit, but the Indians basically just gave up,
slowly, group by group, over ~300 years. They put down their weapons,
renounced armed struggle and resolved to accept the invaders.
Anyway the situation with US and Indians differs in many ways from
Zionists and Arabs which I will elaborate if you wish.
Please do.
In another post, ok.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Basically, Am
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Indians have a much better situation that the Palestinians and their 2
conditions are not really analogous at the moment.
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2) You've established a list of countries that must be attacked in order
to
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stamp out Islamic fundamentalists,
Not me! I just threw out some guesses for you all. Because the
warriors here when they talk about this Terror War, it sounds like a War
on Islam or a War on Muslims. Well, if that is what it is then *I will
gladly advocate armed attacks on military targets in the US* right now,
ok? Now, I do not think the US is intending at the moment to attack
every Muslim country on Earth. So, I want the warriors here to LAY OUT
precisely which damned countries they wish to attack and why. Also,
there are talking about war on some vague "Muslim terrorists" entity.
Well, fine. Like the PLO? See? So, I am going to lay out a list of
armed Islamic movements or groups out there, and I want you folks to
tell me if they are on the plate or what?
Reasonable?
since the Muslims around them cannot or
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will not make them cease their attacks against what they see as a
powerful
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enemy.
Well I never made that argument. I do not think any government on Earth
is assisting Al Qaeda right now, not directly. Iraq is a lot sketchier,
looks like help from Iran. Looks like Pakistan, Iran and Russia are
arming the Afghan mujahedin. So, anyway, my point is the people, the Al
Qaeda constellation, that worry us so, essentially are not being
supported by any states, so regime changing states to fight Al Qaeda
seems retarded.
ARTT, you either buy the notion that militant Islamic fundamentalism is
dangerous, or you do not.
Well, it is, at the moment, because they are at war with us. But they
have laid out some pretty reasonable demands for a truce with us, it
appears. And their original grievances with the US were quite
reasonable. IOW, we could quite easily alleviate much of Al Qaeda's
rage towards us. At that point, I guess they are targeting Muslim
regimes or Israel, or India or Russia, I do not know.....as long as we
stay in Afghanistan and Iraq, we feed it. If we could get out of war
with them, I think they would not attack us. At that pt., I think the
threat is pretty marginal in real terms.
This presumes that we should be interested in placating Al Qaeda. I don't
buy that, either.
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IMV it represents the rise of a new form of
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religious fascism,
Oh I suppose. It is nothing new you know.
Yes, I do. Do you?

I'm not going to get into this business of parsing your text every few
words, btw. Presume I disagree with whatever you're saying.
Post by FP
and not fighting such a thing early on is stupid.
Not really. It is just Islam. We lived with it for centuries, we lived
with the stupid Caliphate, it was no big deal. I would not even worry
about that much.
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Fighting it without a strategy is more stupid, if that's possible.
The worst thing is to feed and increase it which is what we are doing.
In this
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case, there is a strategy, and it isn't retarded.
It is.
I'm not sure why you pick
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out Al Qaeda per se,
They have declared war on USA.
they all share common goals,
Yes but most others have not declared war on USA. Furthermore, Al Qaeda
is extremely radical, much more radical than most such groups.
but let's take them as an
Post by me and bobby mcgee
example. There is nothing OBL would like better than to see a caliphate
across the entire ME in the short term
All the Islamic World, first. Which will never happen, probably.
and the world in the long term.
This is something OBL has never discussed, or Al Qaeda either for that
matter. It is all about the Islamic World.
The
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present invasion as a tactical ploy against Al Qaeda is a null move.
Waging war on Al Qaeda by invading Iraq was like setting your hair
onfire and putting it out with a sledgehammer.
As a
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strategic move it is quite good.
Actually it is a total disaster.
Is it that already? Must have missed something on the news.
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Let's presume the fundamentalists are right, that the USA is an
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enemy,
Is this controversial? Surely, to these fundamentalists, the US is an
enemy to many of them. We have stated as much.
lead by a secret Zionist cabal.
Well, you know, the Zionists have never had more power than under this
loony administration. The Likudniks pretty much have the upper hand
with the Bushies. And it is not a secret cabal, we have names, papers,
dates, biographies, organizations and periodicals with addresses and
phone numbers and a paper trail of evidence dating back decades.
More to the point we have a de facto alliance with Israel.
Ok but it is important to understand that the Bush alliance w/ Israel
vs. all previous administrations is like 2 different universes.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
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Do you believe that the USA could not
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easily conquer every country on the list in all-out warfare?
Which list? We could probably conquer most of those countries, though N
Korea would be really terrible because the N Koreans would kill so many
S Koreans and probly Americans in the process. Iran would not be easy
but we could do it. Syria would be like Iraq but harder. Lebanon
similar to Iraq, that is really hard to say. Somalia could be overrun,
Sudan, yes, Libya, yes. However, Libya and Syria have chem weapons they
could lob at us or Israel. Iran has a highly advanced chem and bio
program. N Korea has a huge chem and bio program and probably a couple
of nukes.
NO it would not be EASY as you put it, esp N Korea. However, it is all
probably doable. But then you would just end of like Iraq or probably a
lot worse in case of Syria, Lebanon, N Korea, maybe Libya, Sudan,
Somalia, because the population would be so goddamned hostile.
I meant "easily" in terms of the military capability,
North Korea and Iran would not be easy at all, and some of the others
would not be pretty. NK and Iran are both doable, but NK is insane
because of all the loss of life.
not the attendant
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human suffering and loss of life. And that's only considering our
conventional capability. In all-out warfare it would be over in an
afternoon.
Well I would not recommend that. I assume you mean nuclear warfare.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Not that I'm advocating that, I'm just not sure where you're going with
listing this country or that one that has problems from the US perspective
with harboring IF terrorists.
Because it is not entirely clear to me why the US is at war with say,
Hamas, or Islamic Jihad, or Hezbollah, or Al-Aqsa, or PFLP, or DFLP. It
is not clear that the countries on those lists are haboring any
terrorists at all, furthermore, even if they are, it looks like those
terrorists are fighting Israel, in which case I say why is that our
business.
*I* never advocated attacking those countries on your list. I asked you
whether you thought it couldn't be easily accomplished.

I will say that you draw distinctions between these groups that are blurry
and best and becoming more so. Al Qaeda has connections with those it finds
useful, sometimes very direct ones. It certainly sympathizes with all of
them, wishes them well, and takes pride in showing them new and brilliantly
innovative ways to deal damage with limited resources. I think you're
whistling in the dark if you think a caliphate in the ME isn't their goal,
and once that is accomplished if it were allowed, that people like that
would be satisfied. Their network is world wide, and their interests are
world wide. They may concentrate on SA as their special baby presently, but
you have to start somewhere, and it's the home of their leader. If you think
he doesn't support exactly the same anywhere else people who think like them
can be found, you're fooling yourself.

Appeasing these people isn't going to work in general, and getting
interested in making a separate "peace" with a band of terrorists without a
sovereign government is IMV a remarkably stupid precedence to set.

You proceed to start frothing at the mouth below, most of which I'm not
going to bother with.
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You simply have utterly failed to lay out your goddamn case. You
threaten this country and that, and 1/2 the time it seems you
threatening war on the whole Islamic/Arab World. As I said before, if
that were our nation's policy, USA would be a mad dog and I would
support all out war on America. Now, that said, that does not appear to
be our policy. But frankly, you guys sound like Hitlerite mad dogs that
need to be put down. It is utterly not accessible to just threaten war
on vast segments of the Earth, without being specific. As I said,
nations that do that are MAD DOGS that must be destroyed. Now, if you
warriors have a beef with some nation, or some group, I want to hear
just exactly what that beef is, ok? Otherwise you will go into the MAD
DOG category.
Whatever you think of the morality of invading
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Iraq, I don't think you can credibly question that the leaders of the
countries on your list wonder what America will do if they persist.
Of course they do, but the whole philosophy is stupid, and so are the
charges. Did any antiwar folks REALLY say that the Bushies would not be
able to threaten ppl right and left and get a lot of ppl to cave in?
Who said that? Show me the quote? So why is it some big victory that
Bush is able to bully the planet into getting his way? The Mafia, the
Colombian cartels, the Axis, the Crips and Bloods, Saddam, they all
bullied ppl into going along with him. Why is Bush's success at
bullying any more apreciable than the Mafia's, or Stalin's, or Saddam's,
or Mao's? Of course bullying works! Did we ever say it did it? Quote
me who said that. It is just a reckless policy that is as likely to
fail as well as succeed and the primary danger is *blowback*.
Anyway, at the moment, it is obvious to anyone that the USA ain't goin
nowhere. The US and Israel (USreal) are completely died down. Israel
is bankrupt and the US is heading there. Israel has its hands full in
OT, and the US in Iraq. The US lacks troops to occupy Iraq. So now we
can go attacking right and left everywhere else? Bullshit. It is
possible that the USreal idiots could recklessly extend themselves even
further by attacking Syria, say, but that is just insane at the moment.
To attack more countries, the US needs a bigger army and a draft.
The Iraqi rebels deserve commendation in a way. They have tied down the
US in a horrible way. Without their resistance, clearly the US would
have attacked Syria, maybe Iran, maybe NK by now.
If you seriously believe that, you are completely off your nut, you know
that?


So in a way they have
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done a good thing.
There's
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evidence that they do wonder about that now, and they should.
They do, but also they are smiling because they know that the US is
horribly tied down in Iraq and cannot really start anymore major wars.
To that end, they are supporting the Iraqi rebels - Syria, Saudi Arabia,
Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, the Palestinians. No one wants the US in Iraq
now, it is bad for all the neighbors. It is in their interest to make
this Iraq situation as ugly as possible.
I do not agree that NK, Iran, Syria or the others are caving in anyway.
I think that is a bunch of propaganda crap.
We disagree there, too.

Harvey
Post by FP
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
FP
2004-01-31 07:45:26 UTC
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Post by FP
Post by Harvey
My problem with this displaced persons argument in general is that it
tugs
Post by FP
Post by Harvey
the heartstrings while not providing anything else. There are many
examples
Post by FP
Post by Harvey
of people being displaced for unfair reasons, but when righting that
wrong
Post by FP
Post by Harvey
simply becomes unworkable, making the argument isn't helpful (and I
don't
Post by FP
Post by Harvey
buy for a minute your rationalizations about the American Indians, for
example, while trying to hold open the argument for the Palestinians...
please correct me if I'm making unwarrented assumptions).
You are indeed. The Indians surrendered, the Palestinians never did.
When the natives surrender, the world ratifies the invasion and moves
on.
I understand the distinction you're making, but you're hair-splitting the
issue when you do it,
Not at all, because this is the way humans have always dealt with this
issue all down through human history. No hair-splitting at all, it is a
crucial distinction.

and I don't buy it. If that's the way it works and is
Post by Harvey
the way Israel should look at it,
They should. If they can ever get the Palestinians to formally
surrender and give up their claims to the land, then Israel will be
validated by most of the world, hopefully. Until then, expect endless
war and world condemnation.

then they never should have given up an
Post by Harvey
inch of the occupied territories,
They never did give up any of them, anyway, this claim applies only *to
native who get their land stolen by invaders* not by a bunch of invader
jerks who steal something and then supposedly give back some of what
they stole. This argument does not apply to Israel, to invaders. The
argument there is Israel stole it, and the world will not see Israel's
land claim as justified until the Palestinians give up.

and the settlers are right to put up all
Post by Harvey
the settlements they want to,
Oh I see where you are headed....

because the struggle is still on, and screw
Post by Harvey
talking with the Palistinians at *all*.
Well......if you mean the settlers should not leave until the
Palestinians give up and surrender, maybe so, maybe so. But I think it
is not a problem. This argument does not apply here. It applies to the
ripped-off, not the rippers. Anyway, Israel breaks every treaty, every
rule, every norm, violates all popular opinion.......so Israel should
not care about evacuating these settlements anyway. Surely Israel will
not take it as renunciation of land claim. Anyway, Israel can always
just go reconquer the area and rebuild the settlements. They have
hardly evacuated any anyway, and they probly never will, ever.

Your argument there was an odd diversion.>
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
Returning
Post by Harvey
Palestine to the Palestinians and recreating the situation 60 years ago
isn't workable. Some other balance must be struck.
I favor a binational state, if possible.
So do I.
You mean one state in Palestine, Jews and Arabs all together, no Jewish
state?> >
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
Well, it is, at the moment, because they are at war with us. But they
have laid out some pretty reasonable demands for a truce with us, it
appears. And their original grievances with the US were quite
reasonable. IOW, we could quite easily alleviate much of Al Qaeda's
rage towards us. At that point, I guess they are targeting Muslim
regimes or Israel, or India or Russia, I do not know.....as long as we
stay in Afghanistan and Iraq, we feed it. If we could get out of war
with them, I think they would not attack us. At that pt., I think the
threat is pretty marginal in real terms.
This presumes that we should be interested in placating Al Qaeda. I don't
buy that, either.
Why not? We already did it anyway? US bases out of Saudi Arabia?
Looks like it. I believe they only had a few demands of us anyway:
Bases out of Saudi Arabia, stop sanctions/bombing of Iraq, and something
about Palestine. That is really it. Just do it and don't say you are
placating them.
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
IMV it represents the rise of a new form of
Post by Harvey
religious fascism,
Oh I suppose. It is nothing new you know.
Yes, I do. Do you?
Islam has often had some radical tendencies, and a Caliphate existed for
100's of yrs and it was no big deal. The type of Islam historically
practiced was pretty fundamentalist I think. Big deal. We hung with
it.
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
Waging war on Al Qaeda by invading Iraq was like setting your hair
onfire and putting it out with a sledgehammer.
As a
Post by Harvey
strategic move it is quite good.
Actually it is a total disaster.
Is it that already? Must have missed something on the news.
Well most Americans do not think it is going well and that is all that
matters, really.>
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
Because it is not entirely clear to me why the US is at war with say,
Hamas, or Islamic Jihad, or Hezbollah, or Al-Aqsa, or PFLP, or DFLP. It
is not clear that the countries on those lists are haboring any
terrorists at all, furthermore, even if they are, it looks like those
terrorists are fighting Israel, in which case I say why is that our
business.
*I* never advocated attacking those countries on your list.
Well the others in here were just advocating Islamic countries in
general. I did not believe they were that insane, so I asked them to
clarify.

I asked you
Post by Harvey
whether you thought it couldn't be easily accomplished.
Right. At the moment answer is NO. We would need to go on a war
footing like in WWII, when we mobilized 22% of GNP for war. Now I think
it is 1%. We would need a much larget army and a draft. Barring that,
it ain't happenin.
Post by Harvey
I will say that you draw distinctions between these groups that are blurry
and best and becoming more so.
Absolutely not. Few of those groups are as radical as Al Qaeda and most
do not have the global jihad to caliphate plan.

Al Qaeda has connections with those it finds
Post by Harvey
useful, sometimes very direct ones.
Not many with most of those groups there.

It certainly sympathizes with all of
Post by Harvey
them, wishes them well,
Oh I am not so sure about that. They do not like any secular movements.

and takes pride in showing them new and brilliantly
Post by Harvey
innovative ways to deal damage with limited resources.
Hardly. I woudl AQ connection with most groups in that list is about
nil.

I think you're
Post by Harvey
whistling in the dark if you think a caliphate in the ME isn't their goal,
Al Qaeda's? Yes, but first they need to go country by country and
establish a Taliban like state, which progect probably never gets done.
Post by Harvey
and once that is accomplished if it were allowed,
Step 1: Establish Taliban-like regimes in all Islamic state.

Likelihood of occurrence: Very small.

Step 2: *After Step 1 is accomplished, implement 2: Establish Islamic
caliphate in Muslim World.

Likelihood of occurrence: Even more dubious than Step 1.

Step 3: Variable, Al Qaeda never discusses it.

Likelihood of occurrence: Considering Step 2 is totally unlikely, I say
do not worry bout Step 3.

that people like that
Post by Harvey
would be satisfied.
Well Islam had a Caliphate for 100's of years and they mostly left the
rest of us alone.

Their network is world wide, and their interests are
Post by Harvey
world wide.
And very unpopular.

They may concentrate on SA as their special baby presently, but
Post by Harvey
you have to start somewhere, and it's the home of their leader.
Because that is where they started.

If you think
Post by Harvey
he doesn't support exactly the same anywhere else people who think like them
can be found, you're fooling yourself.
He does, he wants Taliban like Islamic state in all the Muslim World.
Post by Harvey
Appeasing these people isn't going to work in general,
It is not an issue because if we leave them alone they will probly fade
out.

and getting
Post by Harvey
interested in making a separate "peace" with a band of terrorists without a
sovereign government is IMV a remarkably stupid precedence to set.
No need for that. But if they have limited grievances with us that are
easy to fulfill, just do it and say you did not.
Post by Harvey
You proceed to start frothing at the mouth below, most of which I'm not
going to bother with.
Not at all, you folks need to stop sounding like Mad Dogs.>
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
The Iraqi rebels deserve commendation in a way. They have tied down the
US in a horrible way. Without their resistance, clearly the US would
have attacked Syria, maybe Iran, maybe NK by now.
If you seriously believe that, you are completely off your nut, you know
that?
A large # of ppl in the world believe that, maybe a majority. It is
only obvious. Iraq threw a wrench in their crazy plan
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-31 23:17:56 UTC
Permalink
FP seemed to be talking to himself. It did not matter
since he is off the wall wrong 100% of the time. Of
course I only see his bullshit when he sucks someone
into responding. He finds a new sucker to troll every
few days.
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
Post by Harvey
Returning
Palestine to the Palestinians and recreating the situation 60 years ago
isn't workable. Some other balance must be struck.
I favor a binational state, if possible.
So do I.
No way that can/will happen
Post by Harvey
Harvey
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-02-01 00:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
FP seemed to be talking to himself.
Nope, responding to Harvey's questions, lying Jew. The fact that he
does not respond much is not my fault, lying Jew.

It did not matter
Post by Le Mod Pol
since he is off the wall wrong 100% of the time.
Typical lying Jew type comment.

Of
Post by Le Mod Pol
course I only see his bullshit when he sucks someone
into responding.
When someone is daring or brave enough to take me on, instead of just
sitting back like a ziospammer and responding to all your opponents'
posts with zippy oneliners.

He finds a new sucker to troll every
Post by Le Mod Pol
few days.
Yep, Jews never answer the question. I always knew that.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
Post by Harvey
Returning
Palestine to the Palestinians and recreating the situation 60 years ago
isn't workable. Some other balance must be struck.
I favor a binational state, if possible.
So do I.
No way that can/will happen
You Jews will not allow it, correct, Ziospammer.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Harvey
2004-02-01 18:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
FP seemed to be talking to himself. It did not matter
since he is off the wall wrong 100% of the time. Of
course I only see his bullshit when he sucks someone
into responding. He finds a new sucker to troll every
few days.
Yeah, well, not to worry. Read some of the rest of his stuff now and once
you're familiar with it, it's very boring. White American, hates Jews, not a
Muslim (why not?)... wonder if he's KKK, if there's such a thing as a
leftist klansman, but not really interested.

Harvey
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by Harvey
Post by FP
Post by Harvey
Returning
Palestine to the Palestinians and recreating the situation 60 years ago
isn't workable. Some other balance must be struck.
I favor a binational state, if possible.
So do I.
No way that can/will happen
Post by Harvey
Harvey
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-02-02 00:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harvey
Post by Le Mod Pol
FP seemed to be talking to himself. It did not matter
since he is off the wall wrong 100% of the time. Of
course I only see his bullshit when he sucks someone
into responding. He finds a new sucker to troll every
few days.
Yeah, well, not to worry. Read some of the rest of his stuff now and once
you're familiar with it, it's very boring. White American, hates Jews,
No I do not like the Zionists. There are problems with Jewish culture,
but there are problems with most cultures. I would never, hopefully,
dislike or harm any person merely because they are Jewish. If their
behavior is objectionable, perhaps. I really do not care who anyone's
mother or father was or where they worship.

not a
Post by Harvey
Muslim (why not?)
I am not very religious.......that religion in particular in not
appealing to a hedonist like me and it seems rather hard to believe
in......I have some very serious problems with that religion
anyway......you think I got a beef with Jews only? Bah!

... wonder if he's KKK,

Actually I really do not like those white supremacist types, that said,
I like in a redneck rural mountain West town that in which they are
quite common and some of my friends are like that.

if there's such a thing as a
Post by Harvey
leftist klansman,
My feelings about the KKK are about on par with my fiery rantings at the
Zionist Jews......
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 13:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels that
they are) into the sea.
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim it is
THEIR land anyway? The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
who TOOK OVER, just as they take over everywhere where they are welcomed. It
is the Israelites who should be inviting the "Palestinians" to live in
Israel. (as they do)
Why should Israel "invite" the arabs to kill them??
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
2004-01-31 13:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by FP
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
They do want to toss the Jews, Christians, and everyone else (Infidels that
they are) into the sea.
By the way- who the hell do the "Palestinians" think they are to claim it is
THEIR land anyway? The Israelites lived there long before the Arab Muslims,
who TOOK OVER, just as they take over everywhere where they are welcomed. It
is the Israelites who should be inviting the "Palestinians" to live in
Israel. (as they do)
Boy you got your hippie head up your ass.

The jews tried squatting on land located in Libya 5000 years ago when
the Egyptians put an end to that. After the Egyptians let them go they
moved across the red seas and squatted on the palestinians land.

Death to the christian jew cop government.
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 13:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
So, what is the agenda, Crusader? Which countries, which orgs are on
the list? You need to tell us, otherwise it seems like you want to
attack and conquer all Muslim countries.
Take your pick ......
Post by FP
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
You were right, they do.
Nafez Azzam is only a voice in their wilderness.
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-01-31 02:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
So, what is the agenda, Crusader? Which countries, which orgs are on
the list? You need to tell us, otherwise it seems like you want to
attack and conquer all Muslim countries.
Take your pick ......
Here is the list. Tell me if that country, or armed group needs to be
attacked by the US or not, and why.

Which groups?

Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon.

The various Palestinian groups? All? Which? Here is a list:
Fatah-Tanzim?
Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade?
Popular Resistance Committees?
PFLP-GC?
PFLP?
DFLP?
Islamic Jihad?
Hamas?

The GIA in Algeria?
Various radical Islamic groups in Yemen?

Various Islamic armed groups in Pakistan:
Jaysh Muhammad?
LET?
HUM?

Jemayaa Islamiyaa in SE Asia?

3 armed Islamist groups in Phillipines:
MILF?
MLF?
Abu Sayyaf?

50 armed Kashmiri groups? Which ones? All?
13 different armed Islamic groups in Chechnya and other places in the
Caucasus?
Armed Islamist groups in Turkey?
PKK Kurds?
Muslim rebels in Thailand?
Aceh rebels in Indonesia?
Radical armed Islamists in Morocco?
Al Qaeda-linked group in Kuwait?
Armed Islamists in Western China?

Other rebels:

FARC/ELN in Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, Ecuador, Guyana, Panama, Peru?
NPA in Phillipines?
Maoists in Nepal?
ETA Basques in Spain and France?
Maoists in India?
Various separatists in Eastern India?
Various separatists in Burma?
Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka?
Shining Path in Peru?

Any I left out?

Which countries and why?

Syria?
Iran?
Saudi Arabia?
Somalia?
Lebanon?
Sudan?
Libya?
Pakistan?
North Korea?
Cuba?
Venezuela?
Yemen?
Egypt?
Algeria?

Hizbollah? Now you need to attack Lebanon. You will need to attack,
invade, conquer and occupy Lebanon, probably.

The various Palestinian groups? You will need to attack, invade,
conquer and occupy the Occupied Territories then.

It looks like you will need to attack Phillipines, Kashmir, Pakistan,
Chechnya and Caucasus, Turkey, Indonesia, Yemen and Algeria then
correct?
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by FP
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole..."
Wait, but I thought the nasty A-rabs wanted to toss the poor Jews into
the sea!
You were right, they do.
Nafez Azzam is only a voice in their wilderness.
Oh the very leader of ISLAMIC JIHAD is a lone voice of moderation!
LMFAO!
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Neocon Trotskyite
2004-01-29 07:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
So, what is the agenda, Crusader? Which countries, which orgs are on
the list? You need to tell us, otherwise it seems like you want to
attack and conquer all Muslim countries.
Of course we want to conquer the Middle East. We want your oil.
We're coming to get it and there is absolutely nothing you can do
about it. So just give up, burn your Korans, burn your turbans, eat
pork(the other white meat) and be just like Americans.

A century from now, when America controls all lands formerly occupied
by Islam, your descendants will salute the American flag and whistle
"God Bless America" out of their assholes when they kneel in prayer
while facing in the direction of Washington D.C. in order to worship
the President of the United States; the almighty creator of the
Universe.

Afterwards, your descendants will work all day in factories to make
Americans rich.

NeoCon Trotskyite
Destroying Islam One Country At A Time
FP
2004-01-30 11:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neocon Trotskyite
Post by FP
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
So, what is the agenda, Crusader? Which countries, which orgs are on
the list? You need to tell us, otherwise it seems like you want to
attack and conquer all Muslim countries.
Of course we want to conquer the Middle East. We want your oil.
We're coming to get it and there is absolutely nothing you can do
about it. So just give up, burn your Korans, burn your turbans, eat
pork(the other white meat) and be just like Americans.
A century from now, when America controls all lands formerly occupied
by Islam, your descendants will salute the American flag and whistle
"God Bless America" out of their assholes when they kneel in prayer
while facing in the direction of Washington D.C. in order to worship
the President of the United States; the almighty creator of the
Universe.
Afterwards, your descendants will work all day in factories to make
Americans rich.
NeoCon Trotskyite
Destroying Islam One Country At A Time
Are you serious or is this some kind of a joke?
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Don W. McCollough
2004-01-28 08:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
It's one thing to occupy a country and take its natural resources, but
it another thing to actually want to change a man's religion. If you
think this can somehow be accomplished without hundreds of thousands
dead, you are sadly mistaken. And your religion is telling you to
attempt to use force to change a man's religion, then you need to get
another religion yourself. What you are proposing is genocide.
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 14:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don W. McCollough
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a meteorite, and
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other religion.
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
It's one thing to occupy a country and take its natural resources, but
it another thing to actually want to change a man's religion. If you
think this can somehow be accomplished without hundreds of thousands
dead, you are sadly mistaken. And your religion is telling you to
attempt to use force to change a man's religion, then you need to get
another religion yourself. What you are proposing is genocide.
What islam has practised for almost 1400 years, is just
that - genocide.

Here is a bit of insight from a recent book by
Ahmed Rashid:
Jihad: The Rise of Militant Islam in Central Asia,
New Haven and London, Yale University Press, 2002

"One of the most intriguing questions about Islamic
movements in Central Asia today is how a highly
secretive, pan-Islamic movement [Hizb ut-Tahrir] that
originated in the Middle East and largely does not even
address pertinent issues of public concern in Central
Asia has become the most popular, widespread
underground movement in Uzbekistan, Kyrgizstan, and
Tajikistan. ... Government crackdowns against the HT
have become fiercer and more widespread, even as the
regimes try to figure out how the movement has spread
so far, so fast.

"... The HT has a vision of uniting Central Asia,
Xingjiang Province in China, and eventually the entire
umma (Islamic world community) under a khilafat
(caliphate) that would reestablish the
Khilafat-i-Rashida which ruled the Arab Muslims for a
short time after the Prophet Muhammed's death in 632.
Under the Khilafat-i-Rashidi, which lasted until 661,
the message of Islam spread rapidly across the Middle
East and Africa through conquest and conversion. ..."

"The HT was founded in Saudi Arabia and Jordan in 1953
by diaspora Palestinians led by Sheikh Taqiuddin
an-Nabhani Filastyni. ... 'The minds of Muslims ...
only conceptualize the system of government through the
depraved democratic regimes foisted upon Muslim
countries. ... The point at hand is not establishing
several states, but one single state over the whole
world.'"

HT and al Qaeda are organized in similar fashions. 5 to
7 men to a cell and each required to recruit and form
new cells. Although they have differing perspectives,
particularly on methodology and tactics, both have one
objective — a global caliphate.

"An-Nabhani's concept of the future Islamic state
envisages a political structure in which a caliph
elected by an Islamic shura (council) would have
dictatorial powers in a highly centralized system.
The caliph would control the army, the political
system, the economy, and foreign policy.

Sharia would prevail, Arabic would be the language of
the state, and the role of women would be severely
restricted.

The defence minister, whose title would be amir of
jihad, would prepare the people for jihad against the
non-Muslim world. Military conscription and training in
preparation for this jihad would be mandatory for all
Muslim men over 15."

The HT has offices in Germany and England. In London,
HT
raises funds and trains recruits to spread the movement
in
Central Asia. It held a conference in London, August
2001,
that was extremely well organized, well funded, and --
well
attended, with busloads arriving from all over England.
In Tashkent alone, they claim 60,000 supporters.

Now if you read this (written by a Muslim journalist
based in SouthCentral Asia) and still believe that
Islam is not intent on world domination and genocide,
you had best get to a mental health specialist today.
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
2004-01-28 19:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims have been misled into following a false prophet who espouses
violence and intolerance. They unwittingly (most of them) follow a
true
Post by me and bobby mcgee
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
So do christians. Julius Caesar raped the 12 year old virgin mary.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a
meteorite, and
Post by me and bobby mcgee
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other
religion.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if you
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread their
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire world
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to live in
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win any
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
uh...
You forgot I am an american maggot. You take that hick shit and stick
it.
Greedy christian capitalists have been killing the poor for long time.
Time is going to spin your head so fast you won't know what hit you.

Let them keep mecca.
I want freedom out my front door.

Death to the christian military.
me and bobby mcgee
2004-01-28 23:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Post by me and bobby mcgee
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
So do christians. Julius Caesar raped the 12 year old virgin mary.
Jesus advocated peace. Christianity advocates loving thy neighbor. Defending
one's people, in this case against terrorism, sometimes requires the use of
violence to counter violent provocation. What the fuck are you talking
about...Caesar....huh?
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Post by me and bobby mcgee
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a
meteorite, and
Post by me and bobby mcgee
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other
religion.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if
you
Post by me and bobby mcgee
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread
their
Post by me and bobby mcgee
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire
world
Post by me and bobby mcgee
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to
live in
Post by me and bobby mcgee
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win
any
Post by me and bobby mcgee
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
uh...
You forgot I am an american maggot. You take that hick shit and stick
it.
Greedy christian capitalists have been killing the poor for long time.
Time is going to spin your head so fast you won't know what hit you.
Are you happy to be an American? Do you like it here? I hope so. Most places
wouldn't allow such talk against their government, so you and I are blessed,
wouldn't you say?

Hick shit? Listen, you miscreant- If I were a country dweller, I suppose
that comment was supposed to strike some sort of nerve. You missed. We live
and work in a large metropolitan area.

Us "greedy Christian capitalists" give roughly 500 billion dollars per year
in foreign aid- more than the rest of the world combined. Why do we do this?
Two reasons- diplomacy and charity. Us "greedy Christian capitalists" have
created more wealth through hard work than most people can manage. This has
always been our strength- the drive and determination to make our lives
better through hard work. I, for one, have never relied on "poor people"
(unless you count myself when I was young and poor) to do anything for me.
What I have, I've earned. What I've earned, I've shared with others through
charity, taxes, and creation of more wealth (GDP) for others to share.

Here's an experiment for ya, sparky- I did it, now you try it. Start at $0.
You're POOR. Get a job. Buy a home-a small home will do- Now, make payments
on said home for several years. Start fixing up this home and create a
couple of new rooms, landscape the yard, put in a fence and pond. Do it
yourself to save money. Now, sell the house at a large profit. Buy a bigger
house and do it all over again. Now, buy a couple of small houses, rent them
to "poor people" who can't afford to buy a home, and make a profit.
Meanwhile, pay an ever-increasing share of the nation's tax burden because
of higher tax rates, and pay a huge property tax bill every year. Also, when
your poor tenants fall on hard times, let them slide for a month- you can
afford it- and it's the right thing to do.

After doing this, tell me how you feel about-
a)- working hard enough to make all your payments on time
b)- providing a nice home for your family
c)- working extra hard to increase your wealth
d)- paying many times the income/property tax of your "poor" neighbor
e)- giving money to your church, synagogue, or community organization to
help the needy.
f)- handing out sandwiches and drinks to homeless people when it's cold,
because you know that you have been blessed, and want to share with others
g)- continuing to accumulate wealth through more hard work and good
investments
h)- knowing that when you die, the Government wants to take half of
everything you've earned, instead of leaving it for your kids and family, so
they can fund some lazy asshole who wants to stay home, smoke pot, and beat
his wife all day?
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Let them keep mecca.
I want freedom out my front door.
Me too.
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Death to the christian military.
Long live the defenders of my country, the United States of America. May God
bless the soldiers and sailors who have fought, and died, for my right to be
free. May those who are against my right to live free, and who want to harm
my fellow citizens, find salvation from evil before they carry out their
evil intentions, and, if they don't, I pray that we stop them before they
can harm anyone.
ELurio
2004-01-29 15:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Post by me and bobby mcgee
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
So do christians. Julius Caesar raped the 12 year old virgin mary.
Um...Julius Caeser had been dead over 40 years when the "Virgin Mary" was 12.
It's mistakes like that in the gospels that pretty much qualify them as mostly
fiction.

eric l
PS I know that Julius wasn't mentioned in the gospels.
Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
2004-01-31 13:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Post by me and bobby mcgee
child-molesting, male chauvinist named Mohammed who advocated world
So do christians. Julius Caesar raped the 12 year old virgin mary.
Jesus advocated peace. Christianity advocates loving thy neighbor. Defending
Bullshit. Jesus advocates an endless war. Caesar never carried a sword
yet conquered lands with lies and deceptions.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
one's people, in this case against terrorism, sometimes requires the use of
violence to counter violent provocation. What the fuck are you talking
about...Caesar....huh?
Take your hippie head out of your ass.
The year 0 julian calendar was a gift from Father to Son. Any other
gregorian catholic history is pure bullshit.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Post by me and bobby mcgee
domination with his evil idealism. They unwittingly worship a
meteorite, and
Post by me and bobby mcgee
follow ancient traditions more akin to Paganism than any other
religion.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Muslims, your religion is evil. The "Allah" that you worship, even if
you
Post by me and bobby mcgee
think differently, is the Devil, not God.
Muslims have conquered many lands over the past 1000+ years to spread
their
Post by me and bobby mcgee
evil message by force. They will not be satisfied until the entire
world
Post by me and bobby mcgee
follows their evil "prophet". The time to act is now. If you wish to
live in
Post by me and bobby mcgee
peace with the rest of the world, act like it. Until then, we will win
any
Post by me and bobby mcgee
battle that you start, and will put an end to your extremist faction's
violent ways with force.
uh...
You forgot I am an american maggot. You take that hick shit and stick
it.
Greedy christian capitalists have been killing the poor for long time.
Time is going to spin your head so fast you won't know what hit you.
Are you happy to be an American? Do you like it here? I hope so. Most places
wouldn't allow such talk against their government, so you and I are blessed,
wouldn't you say?
Hick shit? Listen, you miscreant- If I were a country dweller, I suppose
that comment was supposed to strike some sort of nerve. You missed. We live
and work in a large metropolitan area.
Us "greedy Christian capitalists" give roughly 500 billion dollars per year
in foreign aid- more than the rest of the world combined. Why do we do this?
Meaning you stole it from the rest of the world you are just now giving
it back.
Post by me and bobby mcgee
Two reasons- diplomacy and charity. Us "greedy Christian capitalists" have
"Either do as we say or you get killed" greedy capitalists.


The rest is not worth the bandwidth.
Yahoo one more christian warrior killed today means I am freer.
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 23:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yawnkin Bhuorpnwiz
Greedy christian capitalists have been killing the poor for long time.
Time is going to spin your head so fast you won't know what hit you.
Let them keep mecca.
I want freedom out my front door.
Death to the christian military.
MORE UTTER NONSENSE!!
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
PagCal
2004-01-28 10:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.

10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
This year, we invaded Iraq.
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.

Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.

... are you starting to see the trend?
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-28 14:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
This year, we invaded Iraq.
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Not really, but then neither are you.

I have yet to see, from you, a realistic post, on
domestic or international politics.

As Orwell pointed out long ago, pacifism in the face of
armed evil is equivalent to a blind worship of force.
For those of our race - the historic victims of so many
causes - it would be disastrous to make the same
mistake twice, and entrust our children's fate to the
hands of these sad and complicitous pacifists.

Take that quote to heart - it is about you!
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-01-31 02:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
This year, we invaded Iraq.
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Not really, but then neither are you.
I have yet to see, from you, a realistic post, on
domestic or international politics.
As Orwell pointed out long ago, pacifism in the face of
armed evil is equivalent to a blind worship of force.
For those of our race - the historic victims of so many
causes - it would be disastrous to make the same
mistake twice, and entrust our children's fate to the
hands of these sad and complicitous pacifists.
Yeh you are Jew, I thought so. Figgers. :(
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
JGB
2004-01-31 16:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by Le Mod Pol
As Orwell pointed out long ago, pacifism in the face of
armed evil is equivalent to a blind worship of force.
For those of our race - the historic victims of so many
causes - it would be disastrous to make the same
mistake twice, and entrust our children's fate to the
hands of these sad and complicitous pacifists.
Yeh you are Jew, I thought so. Figgers. :(
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.<
UNDER the WING of ISlam??? FU. The great and ancient Jewish nation will
not live "under the wing" of anybody anymore. And I don't think the
Christians want to do so either. Your "ISlam" put its mosques
on the Holiest of Holy Jewish soil, and Israel is nice enough not to
blow the whole bloody thing to kingdom come. Before the great Arab
outbreak and invasions of the surrounding nations and subjugation of
their peoples, the peaceful prophet showed his hand when he murdered,
robbed, and ethnically cleansed the Jews out of northern Arabia.
Screw the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hizb'Allah, all the jihadist together.
JEws have their own soil back, in part, and aren't going to live "under"
anybody anymore.
Post by FP
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm<
BS. Anyway, the Arabs started the war against the Jews in 628 AD when
Muhammad murdered them, and 638AD when Umar began to build mosques on our
Temple Mount. Want peace? GET OFF JEWISH SOIL!
FP
2004-02-01 00:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by JGB
Post by FP
Post by Le Mod Pol
As Orwell pointed out long ago, pacifism in the face of
armed evil is equivalent to a blind worship of force.
For those of our race - the historic victims of so many
causes - it would be disastrous to make the same
mistake twice, and entrust our children's fate to the
hands of these sad and complicitous pacifists.
Yeh you are Jew, I thought so. Figgers. :(
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.<
UNDER the WING of ISlam??? FU. The great and ancient Jewish nation will
not live "under the wing" of anybody anymore. And I don't think the
Christians want to do so either.
Well personally I think it is shit too, but of course the Christians and
Muslims are all living under the wing of the JEWS in Palestine anyway,
now right?

I just posted that cuz the Zionists keep lying about Hamas wanting to
kill all the Jews. Personally, I think Hamas is a disaster, but I am
not sure they are bent on extermination.

Your "ISlam"

Not mine, I am not Muslim.

put its mosques
Post by JGB
on the Holiest of Holy Jewish soil, and Israel is nice enough not to
blow the whole bloody thing to kingdom come.
Wow, you Zionists really are insane huh? You are as nuts as the
psychoMuslims.

Before the great Arab
Post by JGB
outbreak and invasions of the surrounding nations and subjugation of
their peoples, the peaceful prophet showed his hand when he murdered,
robbed, and ethnically cleansed the Jews out of northern Arabia.
This is correct.
Post by JGB
Screw the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hizb'Allah, all the jihadist together.
Well I am not fond of them either.
Post by JGB
JEws have their own soil back, in part,
In part? How big IS their land, anyway?

and aren't going to live "under"
Post by JGB
anybody anymore.
Well.......
Post by JGB
Post by FP
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm<
BS.
Well go argue with Begin then.

Anyway, the Arabs started the war against the Jews in 628 AD when
Post by JGB
Muhammad murdered them, and 638AD when Umar began to build mosques on our
Temple Mount.
Wow, you Zionists are really nutso, huh?

Want peace? GET OFF JEWISH SOIL!

Well of course, this is the only way to make peace with the Zionists,
this is well known.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
PagCal
2004-01-31 12:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Orwell says...
He was a fictional author.

Is that how you want to set foreign policy - based on fiction?
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-31 21:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by PagCal
Orwell says...
He was a fictional author.
Is that how you want to set foreign policy - based on fiction?
He was by turns, a scholar, a poet, a teacher, a
professor, a journalist, a soldier (aragon front
Spanish Civil war), a war correspondent (WW II),
novelist and philospher/futurist.

It has been said that if his novel "1984" was titled
2004 he would have been right on. (some others said 1994)

I I were POTUS, I would want Eric Arthur Blair aka
George Orwell, as Secretary of State. Let us look at
the recent incumbents. it really is a sad list.
Colon Bowell 2001-2005
Madeleine Albright 1997-2001
Warren Christopher 1993-1997
James Baker 1989–1992
Alexander Haig 1981-1982
George Shultz 1982-1989
Cyrus Vance 1978-1981
Henry A. Kissinger 1973-1977

Kissinger was a most effective "Foreign Secretary",
maybe the best in history. But from whom of his
successors would you buy a used car??
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-02-01 00:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by PagCal
Orwell says...
He was a fictional author.
Is that how you want to set foreign policy - based on fiction?
He was by turns, a scholar, a poet, a teacher, a
professor, a journalist, a soldier (aragon front
Spanish Civil war), a war correspondent (WW II),
novelist and philospher/futurist.
It has been said that if his novel "1984" was titled
2004 he would have been right on. (some others said 1994)
I I were POTUS, I would want Eric Arthur Blair aka
George Orwell, as Secretary of State. Let us look at
the recent incumbents. it really is a sad list.
Colon Bowell 2001-2005
Madeleine Albright 1997-2001
Warren Christopher 1993-1997
James Baker 1989–1992
Alexander Haig 1981-1982
George Shultz 1982-1989
Cyrus Vance 1978-1981
All of these ppl earn condemnation for not sucking up to JEWS enough.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Henry A. Kissinger 1973-1977
Jewish.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Kissinger was a most effective "Foreign Secretary",
maybe the best in history.
Of course, the biggest Israel supporter on the list.

But from whom of his
Post by Le Mod Pol
successors would you buy a used car??
You trust Kissinger, the Dark Angel, the Prince of Darkness, the Ariel
Sharon of America? Kissinger is one of the most evil men in the entire
world, and one of the most dangerous too. I hope Al Qaeda kills him.
:)
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
FP
2004-01-31 02:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
This year, we invaded Iraq.
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
Do you think that would be a good idea? Don't you think they would
fight guerilla war forever against us?
Post by PagCal
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Obviously.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
PagCal
2004-01-31 12:15:26 UTC
Permalink
A guerilla war forever?
We don't care about the people, only the oil fields.

When we invaded Iraq for example, our troops protected
the oil fields, while letting the civilian infrastructure
be destroyed.

So, either directly kill the population during the invasion,
or label them as terrorists and imprison them,
or put them into zones that they can govern themselves, and
we'll keep the oil fields.
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-31 23:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by PagCal
A guerilla war forever?
We don't care about the people, only the oil fields.
You apparently only care for bullshit over facts and do
not even try to prove your nonsense.
Must be a lawyer. In law school they teach "Bullshit
baffles brains". That has never worked with me.
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-02-01 00:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by PagCal
A guerilla war forever?
We don't care about the people, only the oil fields.
You apparently only care for bullshit over facts and do
not even try to prove your nonsense.
No, that is what you Jews do. :)
Post by Le Mod Pol
Must be a lawyer.
Nah that is a lying Jew profession. :)

In law school they teach "Bullshit
Post by Le Mod Pol
baffles brains".
Right, classic Jewish profession, law.

That has never worked with me.

Except that you are a major practitioner of this very art, Ziospammer.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
j***@hotmail.com
2004-01-31 11:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
This year, we invaded Iraq.
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Hey, I see the trend and what of it? I think that it may be a grand
and noble plan. Not because of the oil supplies, Yes it is a nice
side bar to have uninterrupted flow of oil at a reasonable price but,
for the Middle East needs to be tamed for the purpose of world peace.
The Middle East has been a pit of conflict for about a million years.
If it were possible to civilizes these savages and establishes a
freely elected democratic government, there would be hope. Hope for
all of the opressed people over there. Individuals who are not born
of Saudi royal family have pratically nothing, and they have no hope
of ever getting anything. Without hope, they have nothing to live
for. With nothing to live for, desperate people will resort to
blowing things up. That's one of the reasons the Muslim people so
hate the Jews. Israel is the one and only place in the region that
has freedom, a vote, and a working government. We will give them that
hope (starting with the People of Iraq), and spreading hope through
out. With freedom there will be lasting peace.
(Well, at least this is the way I interpret Bush's long term plan)
PagCal
2004-01-31 12:25:44 UTC
Permalink
You're proposing a 21'st century crusade.

It didn't work back when the Catholic church tried it
and it won't work today or even in the future.

I've got a better idea that I call 'Plan B'.

Under 'Plan B', the US becomes energy independent of the
Middle East. We know we can do this by using alternative
energy sources, fuel efficient devices, and conservation.
It'll take 20 to 50 years, but so what? Instead of 'going to the
moon again', we could set as a national goal, Energy Independence.

Then, since demand for oil would drop, there would be plenty left
in the world to satisfy demand. The price would drift down
to say around 2$/bl, and we could take it or leave it from one
particular country or the other.

We wouldn't need such a large military to go invade the next
Oil Rich, Terrorist Rich country on the list.

No US troops would be killed overseas in such military adventures.

Yes, there'd still be local wars and hot spots, but we would not have
such urgency to intercede.
Le Mod Pol
2004-01-31 20:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
not true for openers
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
This year, we invaded Iraq.
actually just finishing the work left undone by papa
Bushwhacker and Colon Bowell
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
The house of Sa'ud will not last another 10 years.
Their oil reserves will run out then and every bbl is
already mortgaged to the nth degree.

USA Might have to step in to prevent the radical Imams
and al-Qa'eda from taking over. If not al-Qa'eda, then
the Muslim Brotherhood.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Hey, I see the trend and what of it? I think that it may be a grand
and noble plan. Not because of the oil supplies,
There will be no oil left in SA in 2014.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
The Middle East needs to be tamed for the purpose of world peace.
The Middle East has been a pit of conflict
since 622 AD when Muhammed invaded Medina
Post by j***@hotmail.com
If it were possible to civilize these savages and establish a
freely elected democratic government, there would be hope. Hope for
all of the opressed people over there. Individuals who are not born
of Saudi royal family have pratically nothing, and they have no hope
of ever getting anything. Without hope, they have nothing to live
for. With nothing to live for, desperate people will resort to
blowing things up. That's one of the reasons the Muslim people so
hate the Jews.
Israel is the one and only place in the region that
has freedom, a vote, and a working government. We will give them that
hope (starting with the People of Iraq), and spreading hope through
out. With freedom there will be lasting peace.
Amen
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
FP
2004-02-01 00:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
not true for openers
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
This year, we invaded Iraq.
actually just finishing the work left undone by papa
Bushwhacker and Colon Bowell
The Zionist hates these guys for not hating Arabs enough. IOW, not
sucking up to the Jews enuf.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
The house of Sa'ud will not last another 10 years.
Their oil reserves will run out then
You are a moron. This statement is false.

and every bbl is
Post by Le Mod Pol
already mortgaged to the nth degree.
USA Might have to step in to prevent the radical Imams
and al-Qa'eda from taking over. If not al-Qa'eda, then
the Muslim Brotherhood.
Great then what? Military occupation of Saudi Arabia? Lay it out,
Zionist.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Hey, I see the trend and what of it? I think that it may be a grand
and noble plan. Not because of the oil supplies,
There will be no oil left in SA in 2014.
You moron.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
The Middle East needs to be tamed for the purpose of world peace.
The Middle East has been a pit of conflict
since 622 AD when Muhammed invaded Medina
A back to the Zionist-Crusader thing again......
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
If it were possible to civilize these savages and establish a
freely elected democratic government, there would be hope. Hope for
all of the opressed people over there. Individuals who are not born
of Saudi royal family have pratically nothing, and they have no hope
of ever getting anything. Without hope, they have nothing to live
for. With nothing to live for, desperate people will resort to
blowing things up. That's one of the reasons the Muslim people so
hate the Jews.
Israel
Cut to the chase! What really matters to the Zionist Jew? Israel! The
JEWS! Well of course.

is the one and only place in the region that
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
has freedom,
LOL!

a vote,

Those other countries have elections too.

and a working government.

This is a rather retarded statement.

We

We? The Jews?

will give them that
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
hope (starting with the People of Iraq),
Oh God you fucking liar.

and spreading hope through
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
out.
Lie lie lie.

With freedom there will be lasting peace.

Jews lie. It's what they do.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
Sheldon Liberman
2004-02-01 01:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
not true for openers
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
This year, we invaded Iraq.
actually just finishing the work left undone by papa
Bushwhacker and Colon Bowell
The Zionist hates these guys for not hating Arabs enough. IOW, not
sucking up to the Jews enuf.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
The house of Sa'ud will not last another 10 years.
Their oil reserves will run out then
You are a moron. This statement is false.
and every bbl is
Post by Le Mod Pol
already mortgaged to the nth degree.
USA Might have to step in to prevent the radical Imams
and al-Qa'eda from taking over. If not al-Qa'eda, then
the Muslim Brotherhood.
Great then what? Military occupation of Saudi Arabia? Lay it out,
Zionist.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Hey, I see the trend and what of it? I think that it may be a grand
and noble plan. Not because of the oil supplies,
There will be no oil left in SA in 2014.
You moron.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
The Middle East needs to be tamed for the purpose of world peace.
The Middle East has been a pit of conflict
since 622 AD when Muhammed invaded Medina
A back to the Zionist-Crusader thing again......
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
If it were possible to civilize these savages and establish a
freely elected democratic government, there would be hope. Hope for
all of the opressed people over there. Individuals who are not born
of Saudi royal family have pratically nothing, and they have no hope
of ever getting anything. Without hope, they have nothing to live
for. With nothing to live for, desperate people will resort to
blowing things up. That's one of the reasons the Muslim people so
hate the Jews.
Israel
Cut to the chase! What really matters to the Zionist Jew? Israel! The
JEWS! Well of course.
is the one and only place in the region that
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
has freedom,
LOL!
a vote,
Those other countries have elections too.
and a working government.
This is a rather retarded statement.
We
We? The Jews?
will give them that
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
hope (starting with the People of Iraq),
Oh God you fucking liar.
and spreading hope through
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
out.
Lie lie lie.
With freedom there will be lasting peace.
Jews lie. It's what they do.
And you spew stupidity. It's what you do.
Le Mod Pol
2004-02-01 02:11:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by FP
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
not true for openers
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
This year, we invaded Iraq.
actually just finishing the work left undone by papa
Bushwhacker and Colon Bowell
The Zionist hates these guys for not hating Arabs enough. IOW, not
sucking up to the Jews enuf.
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
The house of Sa'ud will not last another 10 years.
Their oil reserves will run out the
You are a moron. This statement is false.
Coming from an idiot jackass like FP that is almost a
compliment. We have known this for mote than ten years
that the SA oil would be depleted by somewhere between
2010 and 2015
and every bbl is already mortgaged to the nth degree.
Post by FP
Post by Le Mod Pol
USA Might have to step in to prevent the radical Imams
and al-Qa'eda from taking over. If not al-Qa'eda, then
the Muslim Brotherhood.
Great then what? Military occupation of Saudi Arabia?
I do not know at this point, nor do I care. There are
more important and immediate things to concern me. The
fall of the house of sa'ud will fall, perhaps when the
comotose king dies and the internecine conflicte turn
into civil wars, and perhaps not before 2010
Post by FP
Post by Le Mod Pol
There will be no oil left in SA in 2014.
You moron. You said that before, idiot jackass. It seems that your vocabulary is somewhat limited as is you brainpower. But your ignorance is limitless. <G>
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
The Middle East needs to be tamed for the purpose of world peace.
The Middle East has been a pit of conflict
since 622 AD when Muhammed invaded Medina
A back to the Zionist-Crusader thing again......
another stupidity

Are we talking about Israel here or Sa'udi Arabia?
Either one or the other -- the header says Saudi Arabia
so Israel is off topic
And you [FP] spew stupidity. It's what you do.
Sheldon -- always the master of understatement ... <g>
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
j***@hotmail.com
2004-02-01 04:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
not true for openers
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
This year, we invaded Iraq.
actually just finishing the work left undone by papa
Bushwhacker and Colon Bowell
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
The house of Sa'ud will not last another 10 years.
Their oil reserves will run out then and every bbl is
already mortgaged to the nth degree.
USA Might have to step in to prevent the radical Imams
and al-Qa'eda from taking over. If not al-Qa'eda, then
the Muslim Brotherhood.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Hey, I see the trend and what of it? I think that it may be a grand
and noble plan. Not because of the oil supplies,
There will be no oil left in SA in 2014.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
The Middle East needs to be tamed for the purpose of world peace.
The Middle East has been a pit of conflict
since 622 AD when Muhammed invaded Medina
Post by j***@hotmail.com
If it were possible to civilize these savages and establish a
freely elected democratic government, there would be hope. Hope for
all of the opressed people over there. Individuals who are not born
of Saudi royal family have pratically nothing, and they have no hope
of ever getting anything. Without hope, they have nothing to live
for. With nothing to live for, desperate people will resort to
blowing things up. That's one of the reasons the Muslim people so
hate the Jews.
Israel is the one and only place in the region that
has freedom, a vote, and a working government. We will give them that
hope (starting with the People of Iraq), and spreading hope through
out. With freedom there will be lasting peace.
Amen
You claim that there will be no oil left in 2014. I say that it
doesn't really matter. With or without oil, the radical Muslims will
still be there. They will still hate Isreal and they will still hate
us for what we are. Even flat broke and oil-less, they will still have
their hate. The only way to quelch this burning hatred is to give
them some hope and freedom over their own destiny. To show them that
their lives do have some meaning. To show that they are no longer
ruled by a brutal limb-amputating, woman-repressing,
citizen-torturing, king or dictator who will be in office for life.
This is the gift that we have given the people of Iraq. I for one, am
looking forward to giving this same gift to Saudi Arabia... even if
its after 2014!
FP
2004-02-01 06:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
You claim that there will be no oil left in 2014. I say that it
doesn't really matter. With or without oil, the radical Muslims will
still be there. They will still hate Isreal and they will still hate
us for what we are. Even flat broke and oil-less, they will still have
their hate. The only way to quelch this burning hatred is to give
them some hope and freedom over their own destiny. To show them that
their lives do have some meaning. To show that they are no longer
ruled by a brutal limb-amputating, woman-repressing,
Ok, women had more rights under Saddam than they did under the US
Occupation.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
citizen-torturing, king or dictator who will be in office for life.
Right, the US Occupation and Governing Council are a dictatorship.
There is NO freedom in Iraq NONE.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
This is the gift that we have given the people of Iraq.
How come almost none of them believe that. 3% of Iraqis agree with that
statement.

I for one, am
Post by j***@hotmail.com
looking forward to giving this same gift to Saudi Arabia... even if
its after 2014!
You are insane. You go into Saudi Arabia to conquer and occupy it and
steal the oil and you will ignite the jihad of your very worst dreams,
you lunatic.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
FP
2004-02-01 06:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by PagCal
Say the House of Saud is overthrown by fundamentalists, who then
(stupidly) threaten the US oil supplies - we'd invade in a heartbeat.
10 years ago, we invaded Kiwait.
This year, we invaded Iraq.
And in 10 years, we'll invade Saudi Arabia.
Bush's 20 year plan to conquer the oil fields. Bush Sr. went into
Kiwait. Bush Jr. went into Iraq.
... are you starting to see the trend?
Hey, I see the trend and what of it? I think that it may be a grand
and noble plan.
Course u do.

Not because of the oil supplies,

Surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre.

Yes it is a nice
Post by j***@hotmail.com
side bar to have uninterrupted flow of oil at a reasonable price but,
Of course, colonialists always talk just like you are now.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
for the Middle East needs to be tamed for the purpose of world peace.
The Middle East has been a pit of conflict for about a million years.
Yep back to Erectus days.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
If it were possible to civilizes these savages and establishes a
freely elected democratic government, there would be hope.
Um, they do not wish to be "civilized" esp by YOU. Westerners have been
invading the ME since the Crusades with this very same line, to civilize
the wild Arabs. All attempts have failed, for 800 yrs. Yet the West
keep playing their same losing hand.

Hope for
Post by j***@hotmail.com
all of the opressed people over there.
They do not want to be liberated by you, not most of em. Probably a
fair number of the Iranians, yes, but even there, your colonization plan
will not be appreciated. The # of Saudis who wish to be liberated by
the US military is almost zero. There are some who would welcome you in
Lebanon, but 85% of Lebanese say they hate the US. Over 50% of Lebanese
*Christians* hate the US!

Individuals who are not born
Post by j***@hotmail.com
of Saudi royal family have pratically nothing,
This is a laughable lie.

and they have no hope
Post by j***@hotmail.com
of ever getting anything.
So is this.

Without hope,

The problem amongst the spoiled rich Saudi terrorist youth is not lack
of hope.

they have nothing to live
Post by j***@hotmail.com
for.
They are a bunch of spoiled rich kids, bored, really really pissed off,
too much time on their hands to sit around and stew about injustices.

With nothing to live for, desperate people will resort to
Post by j***@hotmail.com
blowing things up.
They are about as "desperate" as your typical resident of West Los
Angeles.

That's one of the reasons the Muslim people so
Post by j***@hotmail.com
hate the Jews.
No it is not. It is a question of justice; Jews are attacking Muslims,
this pisses em off, and they have too much time on their hands to think
about this shit.

Israel is the one and only place in the region that
Post by j***@hotmail.com
has freedom,
LOL.

a vote,

Arab states vote.

and a working government.

Arab states have working govts.

We will give them that
Post by j***@hotmail.com
hope (starting with the People of Iraq),
Yeh, they are appear to be real grateful for all this "hope" you are
giving them. NOT.

and spreading hope through
Post by j***@hotmail.com
out. With freedom there will be lasting peace.
This is starry eyed colonial bullshit talk. Colonists used to employ
this grandiose high moral purpose rhetoric all the time.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
(Well, at least this is the way I interpret Bush's long term plan)
The Bush plan is about US domination, total war on Arabs and Islam, wars
for Israel, screwing over most of the world, making the US dictator of
the world, and mostly about BOOTY. Like all colonization.
--
"You the Jews are invited to live in safety in Palestine, the whole...".
Islamic Jihad leader Shaik Nafez Azzam 12-03.
"(Hamas)...is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the
followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible
for...Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with
each other." Hamas Charter, 1988.
In a 8-8-82 speech before the Israeli National Defense College, Menachem
Begin admitted that Israel started the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1982, not
the Arabs.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407073.htm
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